Comeback from maternity with confidence
Our focus for this Season is the 4 Ms (Monthlies, Miscarriage, Maternity and Menopause) and I'm delighted to welcome Jessica Chivers as my guest. Today, we'll be talking about how to comeback from maternity with confidence.
A big thank you to The Surrey Park Clinic for sponsoring this season. Many of us don't prioritise our health. Whether we are juggling work, home-life or family, we often put our health concerns to the bottom of the list. But going through periods, gynae concerns, fertility problems, pregnancy and menopause can be physically and emotionally draining and can affect our confidence. The Surrey Park Clinic can help and will put your health first. Open 6 days a week and offering both virtual or in-person consultations, they are offering our listeners 10% off all initial consultations when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01483 454 016 or visit www.thesurreyparkclinic.co.uk.
About this episode
Our focus for this Season is the 4 M’s which are Monthlies, Miscarriage, Maternity and Menopause, and how these can affect women at work. I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips, to inspire you in your career.
It is a pleasure to welcome Jessica Chivers as my guest today. Jessica is a coaching psychologist, author of a book called “Mothers Work!” and host of the Comeback Coach podcast. She’s also the founder of The Talent Keeper Specialists, a business whose mission is to keep everyone everywhere feeling confident, connected and cared for when they take extended leave from work. I’m delighted she’s joining me today to talk about how to ‘Comeback from maternity with confidence’.
Resources
The Surrey Park Clinic: The Surrey Park Clinic is offering our listeners 10% off all initial consultations when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01483 454 016 or visit www.thesurreyparkclinic.co.uk.
Jessica Chivers:
The Talent Keeper Specialists website
@talentkeepersuk and @comebackcommuk on Instagram
Marcus Buckingham StandOut Strengths Assessment: https://www.marcusbuckingham.com/
My Confidence Matters Hormone Hubs: A major obstacle for women at work is dealing with the 4 Ms – Monthlies, Miscarriage, Maternity and Menopause. The symptoms and side effects of all of these can be debilitating, impact a woman’s confidence and can lead to many days of sick leave, taking extended time off work or leaving the workplace altogether. Our Hormone Hubs are eight-week virtual group coaching programmes delivered on Zoom for up to eight women at a time to support your women with coaching, health and wellbeing support, access to specialists and providing a support network of colleagues. They can be run as a Menopause Hub, Monthlies/Period Hub, Maternity Hub and/or Miscarriage Hub depending on the needs of your organisation. Get in touch to find out more.
Episode transcript
Joy Burnford: Good morning, Jessica, and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.
Jessica Chivers: Thank you so much for having me Joy.
Joy Burnford: It's lovely to have you here. And I know today's topic is going to resonate I'm sure with so many of our listeners, I know that I've been there, you've been there, having children and trying to do the whole juggle with babies and work. And I know I wish I'd listened to your podcast and read your book when I was having babies it would have been really helpful. So wonderful to have you here. So perhaps we could start by just giving a little introduction to our listeners. Tell me a little bit about your background and your family and and how you came to write your book ‘Mother's Work!’
Jessica Chivers: Hmm, me too. I've got two children and a fur kid, Rocky, the whippet. And I started down the track of writing the book Mothers Work! when I was about two years after having Monty when I was expecting my second child. And I live in St Albans in Hertfordshire. And it's a place that's full of professionals. Although it is I'm told the capital of self employment in the UK as well. And when I had Monty I met lots of women who were accountants, management consultants, and lawyers who were talking about not thinking they would be able to return to their jobs because they couldn't do it in less than five days a week and they didn't want to work five days a week. And this really sort of irked me Joy because I thought, well, this is ridiculous. You've done all that work at university, you've done all that work since university, you obviously really enjoy what you do. Why on earth should you not be going back and doing that. So I actually thought it would be great to write a book aimed at employers that I had a working title in my head of ‘Keeping mum: lifting the lid on the secrets of organisations who hang on to female talent’ or something like that, that was less wordy. But the world wasn't ready for a book like that. So instead, I thought let's write a book to empower individual women who are returning to work from mat leave to negotiate, to ask for what they want, think about what would work with the team so that they didn't have to choose between either working full time and being exhausted, or working less than full time but in something that was not commensurate with their skills and abilities and passions. So that's how I came to write it.
Joy Burnford: And perhaps tell the listeners now sort of how you support women who are returning to work after maternity, how has that developed?
Jessica Chivers: Of course, so the book came out in 2011 and it's still as relevant as ever and it was the springboard for setting up my business, The Talent Keepers Specialists. We work with employers to help maintain a sense of confidence, connection and feeling cared for when people take any type of extended leave, so not just maternity, it could be someone taking adoption leave, shared parental leave, sick leave, sabbatical or taking leave for some other reason. 90% of what we do is what we call comeback coaching. So it's either me or one of the team working individually with someone who is preparing or coming back from leave. And also with that person's line manager, because the line manager is so important, when it comes to that sense of connection and people coming back and then returning to peak performance as quickly as possible.
Joy Burnford: And from your experience, what particular challenges and issues do women struggle with most when they're coming back from maternity?
Jessica Chivers: There's quite a lot. And there are definitely individual differences. But I think some of the main ones are around wondering, will people still see me as committed to my job when I'm not able to give as much or I can give in a different way to how I did before I had children? So that's one thing. And a second thing that's linked to that is around career progression, because people are often worried about, well, how can I go beyond my day job, when doing my day job is leaving me, you know, tired, I haven't really got enough time to do this properly, especially if people have moved to four days a week, which is often five days in four not actually, you know, reducing the role by 20%. So I think being able to go beyond the day job, whether that's researching, continuous professional development activities, or doing the CPD, seeking mentoring, doing projects beyond the day job, that's a real challenge. And I think linked to that is the sort of networking piece and reaching out and growing, the people who you know, who can be instrumental to your career development, because people will often think, well, do I get home for half past six for bedtime and bath time? Or do I go to this after work drinks, where I might get to meet some other people, and it's this sort of constant trade off. So people, perhaps are not able to grow their network as well as they were before.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. I think that networking is really interesting, isn't it? And I think we've talked about this before and I cover it in my book that I'm writing as networking is such an important part of career progression. Why do people put it in at the end of the day? It should be integral to the work that goes on during the day, because it's so important for both men and women. I've spoken to a lot of men since the pandemic, and they've said to me, you know, actually, I quite like being at home with my family. And I don't really want to go out in the evenings and do networking. So I think there's a big shift that needs to happen.
Jessica Chivers: I totally agree. And I think one tip on that is, if an individual can't go and do those things in the evening, is, you be the person to set something up for another time of the day, you know, you get on the front foot and say, shall we have breakfast? Should we do this at lunchtime? Should we go for a walking meeting together? Think about clever ways to time optimise but still make those connections with people who you want to be connected to.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. There's also, you know, having all that sort of domestic responsibilities at home, as well as in it and having to do that whole, I call it sort of the brain strain or the mental load of having to remember all these other things that are going on in our lives, as well as trying to work and it's all those extra pressures isn't it, it's really hard.
Jessica Chivers: Hmmm, you're so right.
Joy Burnford: So thinking about that and actually returning after maternity leave, you know, how does that have an impact on confidence and career competence in particular, as this is the subject of the podcast so it's something I'm really interested in. And I personally remember going back and transitioning back into work after having children and and know that women can feel really disconnected from their previous professional life, especially after having their first baby as I think it's a massive change. But equally, actually, after your second baby things quadruple in terms of difficulty, I think. But, you know, tell me a little bit about that and confidence.
Jessica Chivers: Well, if you think about the language, Joy that often gets used when somebody comes back from a leave, like maternity leave, we talk about someone being out of the loop, needing to catch up, feeling that they're on the backfoot. So I think that that feeds into a sense of, you know, am I as good as I was before? You know, I am on the backfoot and I think that can erode your confidence, as well as simply not doing something for many months because you've been in a domestic environment, honing one set of skills. Patience for one!
Joy Burnford: Yes, patience! Exactly. And it's much harder being a mum I think sometimes but yes, anyway, that's another story.
Jessica Chivers: Completely agree! Or the best way to get stuck on Weetabix off a high chair that's a skill that you develop as well! We all have these things. But in terms of coming back, I think there's an opportunity to reframe the coming back to talking about where you're coming back with a fresh perspective. You know, you see things differently and it's so beautiful Joy because, unlike say a new joiner coming from another organisation who also has a fresh perspective, you know, your organisation, warts and all, you understand the culture. And yet with the understanding, and because you've been aware, you also have this fresh perspective, which is just fantastic. So we need to leverage that. We need line managers to say, oh Joy, you know, you've been away for 12 months, you bring a fresh pair of eyes, what do you think about this? Does it make sense how we're planning to roll this new product launch out, or how we're handling this legal case. So that's one thing is let's see ourselves as coming back with a fresh perspective. And also Joy, I do think that being away brings with it an opportunity to reflect on your role to think about the bits that you really enjoy and the contribution that you want to make. And you can step back in quite purposefully, you can recalibrate or reshape your role and say to your line manager, and have a think my team has grown around me whilst I haven't been here, which is fantastic, doesn't make sense to me to come back and do exactly the same thing. You know, let me get the lie of the land for the first four to six weeks, but I'm imagining there's probably some reshaping of my role to be done. I mean, how good is that? And what does that do for our confidence when you're kind of owning this difference? And you're seeing it as bringing a fresh perspective, let's go with that.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely, and not waiting to be asked actually being, as you say, being on that front foot and having those conversations. What a fantastic idea.
*** Joy Burnford: I do hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about my reasons for doing this podcast. At My Confidence Matters our mission is to advance gender equality through building confidence and capability. I’m passionate about enabling every woman to have the confidence to progress in their career, and I love talking to, and sharing women’s stories to inspire others. This podcast forms a small part of what we do, and if you think there’s room for improvement in the way your organisation understands and manages the issues, barriers and obstacles that women face in the workplace, please do get in touch or tell your HR contact about us.
And don’t forget, if women’s health issues are impacting you at work, the highly experienced team of specialist fertility and women's health consultants, nurses and sonographers at The Surrey Park Clinic are offering you 10% off all initial consultations when you reference this podcast. ***
Joy Burnford: Perhaps you could give us a little bit of advice to women to help them feel more confident, you know, when they come back? So what kind of things could they do either during maternity leave, or when they come back? Or before they go even?
Jessica Chivers: Okay, well, let's start with something that we can do before we go away. And that is to record a little bit of video. And it's only for you to watch back. So record a little bit of video with you talking to yourself, your future self and answering these four questions. So one, what have I been doing over the last 12 months? And the reason for that question is just to give future self a recap on the kind of work you were doing, the breadth, the depth, the complexity. Question two is, what am I really proud of? Or what are my highlights in the last 12 months? Again so that's sort of building on Question one, but it's picking out some of those peak moments. So you can go ‘Oh, my goodness, yes. And it was brilliant when I did that. And I want to get back to doing that’. Question three is, what are people saying about me? So that's where you think about positive feedback you've had from colleagues or clients and you tell yourself that you record that on the film so that future Joy can see ‘Oh, my goodness, yes, that person did say that about me' The managing director did recognise that I went above and beyond on this particular project’. And Question four is, what am I looking forward to about coming back to work because again, future Joy, might not quite be remembering what was going on before she left. So hearing, you know, old Joy, talking about that is just brilliant for Joy who’s about to step back hearing it.
Joy Burnford: I love, love, love that. I think it's just such a fantastic idea. I remember sitting, it reminded me of sitting at my kitchen table with a friend actually, when I just had I think my second child and thinking and saying to her, What have I done in my career? What is it that I've done? I can't remember what I'm good at. I can't remember. And this was like, this whole confidence thing for me was just like, and she had to say to me Joy, you've just, you know, you sold your business, you’ve done some amazing things. I was like, Oh, yeah. But I think that recording is just fantastic. And that baby brain, kind of get rid of the baby brain and sort of bring yourself back. It’s a fantastic idea.
Jessica Chivers: Totally. And I must just give credit because it's not quite the exercise that Nicki Seignot and David Clutterbuck give in the book ‘Mentoring New Parents at Work’ but it's a build on that. So I got the basis for this idea, she talks about writing a letter to yourself, but I think I think the visual medium of video and some slightly different questions are really powerful. That's one thing to do before you go. And then I think when you're preparing to come back, definitely use your KIT days or your split days, keeping in touch, split being shared parental leave in touch days, use those because they're a great opportunity to get back onto work soil, either literally on your place of work, or virtually, if you're working that way, just to start to reconnect, get your brain in that space. And there are many things that you can use a KIT day for, but definitely, definitely use those. And don't not use them because you haven't got childcare in place. If needs be, find a friend, find a friend who’ll come with you down to work. So you could go into the office for a couple of hours and hold baby whilst you're in there. So definitely use the KIT days, and you know, a couple of things that obviously we do with people is, coaching is a terrific tool for preparing to go back to work, you know, thinking through what's on your mind, thinking about how you want to step back in. And also, as part of that coaching time, we use a tool called strengths profile, which is exactly what it says, it's a profile, a psychometric that gives you an overview of your strengths. And the power is really in the debrief. It's not just seeing what's in your profile, but people can do strength profile very cheaply online at strengthprofile.com. And I think that's a really great way to reconnect with what you were doing in your work before you went on leave. And think about how you're going to deploy those strengths again, and in new and different ways.
Joy Burnford: Was that Marcus Buckingham, or is that a different one? Because Marcus Buckingham is brilliant as well. So another really good one to look at.
Jessica Chivers: Yes, Marcus Buckingham. He's either Strengths Finder or Strengths Go?
Joy Burnford: Yes, we'll put a note in the in the show notes for that, because I've done that one personally. And I found that very, very useful, as well. So yeah, all those kinds of things are really, really helpful.
Jessica Chivers: And lastly, I’ll just say be kind to yourself when you get back and really think about the things that have gone well, the things that you have done, the contributions you have made in meetings, rather than focusing on the, you know, 671, things that you still don't understand, haven't got your head wrapped around yet or think you need to catch up on. So just focus on what has gone well, three things each day.
Joy Burnford: The other thing that's probably impacting a lot of women at the moment is who've been on maternity is thinking about how working remotely is impacted people in this area. Because this obviously, the last 18 months has been a challenge for everybody. But equally, coming back after maternity and potentially coming back into a virtual setting or hybrid setting. Do you have any advice around that and I know we've talked a bit about office osmosis as well, perhaps you could tell us a little bit about your thinking around that.
Jessica Chivers: I do think that being in a shared space is really important, particularly for people who've been away, who are new starters or at the beginning of their career. And office osmosis is my term to describe how we learn things without setting out to learn things simply because we absorb what's going on around us. So we absorb things through listening to other people on the telephone, through incidental meetings, meetings in the toilet or around the kettle, you know, those incidental conversations that we have with people where we learn things that we wouldn't have set out to go and discover, you know, one of the things about working from home has been that we go into meetings for a given purpose, you know, we get our nine o'clock zoom call, or our 10 o'clock, MS teams call. And we're there to do a particular thing. And we miss the conversations that happen as we walk out of the meeting room or as we go make a cup of tea together. So in terms of ideas, if you are returning remotely, I'd say try and get some actual in real life time with key people, go for a walk with them. If you can't be in the office together, you know, meet up somewhere else. But do try and get that time in real life. And we've actually written an article that's over on our main website on https://www.talentkeepers.co.uk/ about raising your visibility when you return to work remotely or you're simply working remotely. So we'll have to put that in the show notes Joy so people can go and have a look at that.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And sort of linked to that, I guess any advice for women who have prepared for their return but who are now back and they feel that they're really struggling, how should they talk to their line manager and what kind of support could they ask for?
Jessica Chivers: Well, I think the first thing to say is hang on in there for six months. That was something that came out loud and clear in my book when I spoke to lots of women whilst writing, that is give yourself at least six months and during that time, it will feel like a roller coaster. And there'll be times when you think I'm nailing this, I really know what I'm doing and there'll be other days where you just get knocked off course it might be your baby is ill for the second time in three weeks and your childcare falls through and a meeting gets brought forward in your diary giving you less chance to prep for it for example, and you just think I can't do this. I can't do this. Can't do this. Well hang on in there six months and then here's a practical tip. Answer what I call the ‘if only question’. So I think most of us are pretty good at knowing what we need and what will make things all right. And we'll often say to ourselves, Oh, if only! It might be ‘if only I was only working four days a week’, or ‘if only I could just do two days a week from home’,
Joy Burnford: Or if only I could get a full nights sleep!
Jessica Chivers: Listen, seriously. So if you can answer that question, ‘if only’. Write down all the things that come up in your mind, you know, if only I could have or do or be, write them down. And on a serious note, Joy, the thing about sleep, it's so foundational. And you might decide, okay, well, if it's possible, I could go and get a night in a Premier Inn or some other inexpensive hotel just for one night, what difference would that make to me, and then go and chat to your partner about negotiating that or with your mother or your father, if you're a solo parent and need someone to come over and stay with baby to make it happen. But talk to your line manager because there'll be so many of those ‘if only’s’ that are actually fairly small adjustments that you could say to your line manager, I'm thinking if I could just get this, this and this for the next two weeks, or the next month, I think that will make all the difference. Go and talk it through. So that's the ‘if only’ question.
Joy Burnford: Amazing. That's a really good bit of advice. I wanted to just touch on how coaching can help women coming back from maternity, obviously you do you spend your time doing this, and we as an organisation do as well. How can coaching help? And if you don't have a coach, what kind of coaching questions could women be asking themselves or thinking through? I think the thing you just mentioned there about the ‘if only’ is a brilliant, brilliant example. Is there anything else that you could add there?
Jessica Chivers: Hmm. Okay. Well, three more questions are firstly, what's gone well today? If you're feeling negative, or despondent, even despairing, it's very easy to descend into fault finding with everything. And when you find yourself in that space, just stopping and saying, what has gone well today takes your mind to a very different place. And they can be very simple things. But that's a great coaching question. Second thing is, what one change would make the biggest difference to me right now? That's a lovely question. Again, you need to stop and think. And it links to the if only, really. But if you can come up with something that you think will make a difference. And then you can perhaps go and think about how you ask for that or how you make it happen. And the last question that I think is, is a great one that I often ask coachees is, what's the best that could happen if I …We're all very used to hearing what's the worst that could happen. But actually, if you flip that around, and perhaps you're thinking, you know, should I talk to my line manager about I'd like to start doing a compressed, you know, nine day fortnight, or I'd really like to stop my international travel, you've got something that you're thinking, Oh, how well is that going to go down? Should I really ask for it, say to yourself, what's the best that could happen? If I asked for that, or if I did that. And that takes you to a really interesting, exciting place of possibilities.
Joy Burnford: Amazing. So we've covered so much here. And thank you, Jessica, for doing that. I'd love to just sort of have your one tip kind of to sum up, you know, for women coming back from maternity with confidence, you know, what's your one bit of advice that you could give to people?
Jessica Chivers: At the end of each day, write down three good things that have happened, and why they've happened. Really important to write them down, because when you write them down, you're lingering longer on that you're encoding that more deeply in your mind. And when you answer the why, why did that thing go well? You're paying attention to your agency, the difference that you as an individual made or how you brought that about, which is really powerful.
Joy Burnford: Wonderful. Thank you so much. And if listeners want to find more about you or need additional support, where can they go?
Jessica Chivers: Well, for an individual who is preparing for mat leave or coming back from any kind of leave, go over to our Instagram handle @comebackcommuk which is different to our sort of main company handle, which is talking more to HR, which is @talentkeepersuk so go to @comebackcommuk on Instagram, listen to the Comeback Coach podcast. And lastly, download our FREE Career Fuel guide which is essentially the ninth chapter of my book that I couldn't include because there is a word count that we need to stick to, as you well know! So go and get the guide.
Joy Burnford: Amazing and I would highly recommend you listen to the podcast. I know we've spoken about the podcast before and I loved it, and I loved learning from you as a coach as well because I mean, obviously, you know, we do coaching but you do some live coaching with people and I think it's just fantastic to listen to those conversations. And really you can sort of imagine yourself in that position as well. So that's a really lovely place to go and have a listen when you're going on your next dog walk or whatever. So thank you so much, Jessica. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast today. And we look forward to talking again soon.
Jessica Chivers: Thank you very much for having me Joy and very best wishes for the end of the writing of your book. Can't wait to have a look at it when it's out.
Joy Burnford: Thank you so much, bye. And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.
And remember you can get 10% off all initial consultations at The Surrey Park Clinic, when you reference this podcast. To book, get in touch at https://thesurreyparkclinic.co.uk/.
Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.