Time to think
Our focus for this Season is on ‘Wellbeing & self-care’ and I’m delighted to welcome Sophie Stephenson as my guest. Today we’ll be talking about having time to think and how this can support our mental and physical wellbeing – whilst at work and at home.
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About this episode
Our focus for this season is on wellbeing and self-care and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips to help you manage your wellbeing alongside your career.
Today my guest is the wonderful Sophie Stephenson who is a specialist in The Thinking Environment and who runs her own company The Thinking Project. Our conversation today is all about having time to think and how this can support our mental and physical wellbeing – whilst at work and at home.
Resources
The Thinking Project: www.thethinkingproject.co.uk
Connect with Sophie on LinkedIn: Sophie Stephenson
Follow Sophie on Twitter: @TheThinkProj
Nancy Kline’s book: Time to Think: Listening to Ignite the Human Mind
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Episode transcript
Joy Burnford: Good Morning Sophie and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.
Sophie Stephenson: Hello Joy, it's a delight to be here.
Joy Burnford: It's really lovely to see you. And for those who are listening on on audio, this is being recorded on audio, but we're also recording it on YouTube as well. So if you're watching it, hello, and welcome to everybody. So the theme as you know, for season five is wellbeing and self care. So we're going to chat about your background, and your business, The Thinking Project, an overview of what the thinking environment is, and how that links with confidence and also advice for our listeners in how the 10 components of this can help with prioritising their health and wellbeing. And I told you this morning, I'm feeling a bit rundown this week, there's probably an absolutely brilliant topic to be talking about. I was saying I've got a coldsore on my lip that I've tried to cover up for those who are watching on YouTube, trying to make myself feel better. But just saying we all know what it's like having a bit of a sort of a down week. I'm not feeling like a down week, but you know, I'm just feeling a bit less energised as I usually feel. So it's a great time to be talking about this. So tell me a little bit about you, Sophie, and your background and how you discovered the thinking environment.
Sophie Stephenson: Yeah, so my my backgrounds always been in leadership, I suppose Joy. So when I first left university, I went into the Royal Navy as an officer. I then ran teams for the Prince's Trust volunteers, I did lots of different roles, and then went out to Australia. So I lived out in Australia for 10 years. And yeah, did lots of different different roles, but ended up in a large multinational wine company as a Strategy and Ops Manager. But when I like think about all of them, like the theme has always been about transformation and about simplifying complexity. So how do you make complex things simple? And how do you allow people in those complex system to do what they do really, really well. And I was in that role. So I was I'd been put on a fast track Leadership Programme. And I'd gone from those roles where you're sort of successful through your own endeavours to managing teams and so needing to succeed through others. And I was a bit rubbish, you know, I wasn't a particularly good listener, I was quite hierarchical. I quite wanted to control things, because I think I didn't have the confidence in myself. And I just came across a reference to Nancy Kline's work in another book, actually and when I read it, what I found was she put words to a way of being like, of how I wanted to lead. So I sort of read, oh, yeah, this is how I want to lead. This is what I want to do as a leader. But I hadn't known, I hadn't been able to articulate it before I read the book.
Joy Burnford: And sorry, I should have said beforehand, it was about the book is called Time to Think by Nancy Kline. Yeah, and I've just started listening to it, as you know, on Audible, and it is really interesting as it's sort of very simple concepts, but things that we don't think about, generally in life, until we're sort of given that guide and guidance. So give us a little bit of an overview of what the thinking environment is, because, you know, I'm sure many, many listeners haven't come across it like I haven't. So tell me a little bit about it.
Sophie Stephenson: In essence, the thinking environment and the conditions that we need in order to think well, so the sort of underlying premise is that the quality of everything we do, so the quality of our wellbeing, the quality of our health, the quality of our relationships, the quality of our work, all of that depends on the quality of the thinking that we do first. And we're, we're so poured into doing, like we're so poured into this sort of frenetic busyness. And actually, if we can just stop and create a little bit of space and a bit of time to really think first, the quality of all of that doing is far greater. And sort of the best analogy I've come up with Joy is that if you imagine like, a seed, like you throw a bit of seed onto a bit of soil like that seed will do its best to kind of put down roots and grow, you know, it will, that's its nature. But if you put it into the optimal conditions for it, it will flourish, and it will blossom. And for me, that's what I think these principles, these components, these conditions of a thinking environment are, they're really reliable conditions that when you put anyone into them, the quality of their thinking improves, and therefore the quality of their life, the quality of their work improves.
Joy Burnford: Really interesting, and tell me how you're using that now to help others.
Sophie Stephenson: So I think what I do best is help people see how beautifully simple life can be. And so I do that in a number of ways, but predominantly, it's about creating spaces where people feel safe, where they know their voice matters and where they can really realise actually how they've got most of what they need already. So I mainly deliver my own workshops, I run transformational personal development and leadership courses. I coach, qualified coaches and facilitators and teachers in the thinking environment. And then I do all the joyful stuff. So I run retreats and I write. And on occasion, I work with organisations who really want to create the conditions to access the brilliance of the people who are in those organisations. So my background always been in organisations and teams, but I do less of that now.
Joy Burnford: Yes, it was interesting, I was thinking about it when I started to listen to the book, she gave gave an example of a sort of a team meeting. Sorry I've got my dog here who keep jumping up as well. Excuse listeners, if you can hear it. At the very beginning of the book, she talks about a team meeting, and there's somebody who's quite negative in that space. And they were doing an exercise in how to, and you can talk about it better than I can, but you know, how to how to do this sort of thinking environment stuff. And it made me think, actually, if you're, if you're the one person who knows how to do it, is it possible to sort of influence others without having to say we're now going to do the thinking environment, we're going to operate in this way? You know, are there any sort of tips on how you can? If you read the book, to then be able to sort of bring that into your workplace without getting everybody sort of on the same page? I guess, if that question makes sense.
Sophie Stephenson: Yes. I mean, that's exactly how I started Joy. So I read the book, and like, it wasn't my job to run meetings, you know, it's just our meetings were terrible. And so I remember one, we had an external facilitator who was due to come in who, we were in Sydney at the time, and Sydney was fogged in so no planes were landing. And I just said to the person who was convening the meeting, like I've just read this book, can we, should we just try something? And we sort of did. So we didn't do you know, we didn't do what I would say now, but I asked people not to interrupt each other. We did some rounds, we asked a few questions. You know, but it was pretty basic stuff, you know, but it makes such a big difference. Because what it did was allow everyone to know that they had a voice. And to know if they wanted to speak that they would do. I mean, and that within a group of that was like 25 sales men, you know, who were not known for, potentially letting others speak. But just in that, you know, demonstration, what that did was give me confidence, there was something in it, because, as you say, it's like, it's so simple. It's like, it's so simple. And yet, it's so rare, that actually, everyone in a room has an opportunity to speak. And I would say you don't need to say this is a thinking environment, you can just make some really basic changes.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. I think one of the things I'm passionate about gender equality, and talking about how women can have more voices around the table, and that sort of thing. And I think this is a perfect way for leaders to, you know, I'm always saying make sure you're giving everybody the chance to speak and, you know, giving them airtime and stuff is a perfect way to sort of introduce that as well. So let's think about how the thinking environment links with confidence. You've told me before that confidence is something you can cultivate, and I talk about, you know, you can learn confidence, you can learn to be to be more confident, can you talk a little bit about that?
Sophie Stephenson: Oh, I've loved thinking about this, this week, Joy. So I think if you go back to the root of the word confidence, so the root of the word is fid, which is in the middle of that word, which is faith. So con is with, and faith, and then it's with faith in ourselves. That's what confidence is.
Joy Burnford: And sort of the other bit, the word fid, is trust as well, I always think is trust as well. So faith and trust,
In ourselves, you know. And so I think that confidence is something that we develop, when we have got the courage to be ourselves. And so, by that, I mean when we know who we are, when we know what's important, when we have a sense of integrity of authenticity in ourselves, so not based on what we do, but based on who we are. And so I think it's the more we can understand our own thoughts, our own feelings, the more genuine we are, and therefore we've got sort of stronger ground to stand on. And so I think it's that, I think it's trusting our own experiences, trusting what we're doing, trusting ourselves. But I think part of cultivating that and part of developing that trust is to get comfortable with uncertainty and vulnerability, because for me, you can't have confidence without uncertainty. Like they're almost two sides of the same coin. And yet I think it's so seductive to believe we can control. And only when we control everything, can we be confident? And that's just not my experience. It's like, actually, it's despite that.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And some of the best leaders are when they say, I don't know the answer to this, you know, what do you think? And actually, you can be very confident in saying that, and actually probably have more, people have more trust in you when you do say that as well.
*** Joy Burnford: I really hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about my reasons for doing this podcast. My mission is to work together to navigate a path to gender equality. I’m passionate about enabling every woman to have the confidence to progress in their career, and I love talking to, and sharing women’s stories to inspire others. This podcast forms a small part of what we do, and if you think there’s room for improvement in the way your organisation understands and manages the obstacles that women face in the workplace, please get in touch or tell your HR contact about us.
And don’t forget, Coach Matters is offering you 3 month’s free membership of its network when you reference this podcast. Their business development masterclasses and their series of wellbeing events are also now available to non-members. See Coach Matters to find out more. ***
Joy Burnford: So moving on to health and wellbeing, I know, you talk about various different behaviours, or different components of the thinking environment, which can help us to create space to think. So before we look at some of those, you know, as we know, women are very busy. So how can we create space to think and carve out time to stop, you know, to give ourselves that permission to pause?
Sophie Stephenson: So it's tricky, isn't it? You know, there is, I love like Oliver Burkeman talks about this epidemic of busyness, you know, that it's become a badge of honour. But I think we've, it's not even about giving ourselves permission to, we've got to see that having time to think for ourselves and to look after ourselves, is actually the one of the most important things we can do. So I think, like, as women, we're very good at making time for what's important. And so I think if we can decide that we're important, that we matter, then we will make time for it. I think it's just we make an assumption that everyone else's needs are more important than ours. And so we'll do everything else first, and we'll do our task list. And then in the spare time we've got, we'll do us. And I think we've got a flick that, like I think I think we've got to really challenge that assumption that it's selfish, that it's self indulgent, that we've got to come last, because actually, we need us as women to be really looking after ourselves. But we're up against, you know, a lot of pressure not to, you know, there's a lot to do. So I think, I think we've got to really rebel against that, actually, that sort of how seductive busyness can be, you know, and how, actually, it's a form of distraction. You know, it distracts us from having to make choices that have got consequences and really take responsibility for for ourselves. I'm not saying that's easy, you know, I've got two kids as well, but I think one of the things I've that has really helped me is knowing that I can't do it all, and I can't have it all. And I think the thing I've really learned to do Joy, which has helped, but it's also really hard is, it's not about just saying no to the things that you don't want to do. Because often people will just say no to things, we have to get good at saying no to things we do want to do. And I think that's harder, because we've got to accept actually, if I do that thing, that means that actually I can't get to sleep, or I won't be able to see my children or, and we want to do both. But we can't, not sustainably.
Joy Burnford: And actually that happened to me a few weeks ago because I was invited by a friend to go and see ABBA on a Friday night in a few weeks time and I said yeah, brilliant, fantastic, you know, wonderful, brilliant, we agreed it, we decided and I went back and looked at my diary. And the Thursday night I'm in London at an awards do staying up in London, the Friday night would have been this concert. And the Saturday morning had to be at a board meeting at nine o'clock in the morning, and then a dinner party that night. And I suddenly thought, you know even with the best will in the world, I am going to be floored if I do all of that. So I had to say to my friend out of all those things I would have loved to have gone to ABBA, but actually, I really can't. And I just had to, you know, she completely understood because she's completely on the same page as you know, the kind of things we're talking about. So she understood completely. But it's really hard sometimes to make those choices, isn't it? But actually you just need to think about it. And as you know, we're not getting any younger. And you know, I can't even have a glass of wine anymore without feeling rubbish the next day. So it's just you know, try to work out those things that you need. Anyway, so one of the components that you talked about is place, which is about treating ourselves and treating other people like they matter. So, talk a little bit about that and sort of give our listeners some really practical tips on what we can do differently. I think you know, you've said before, it can be as simple as getting a good night's sleep or eating well, or getting outside, talk a little bit about that.
Sophie Stephenson: So I think when we think about wellbeing, I think it's really helpful to flick the word around in terms of what would enable me to be well, so what enables me to be really well. And I think that's for each of us to ask ourselves. So I know I prioritise sleep, above everything. So I had a child that didn't sleep for five and a half years. And for me and our family, that's more important than anything, but for other people, that won't be their thing, you know, so it's, for me, that's really, really important. You know, I think for all of us, we do well by trying to simplify things, to slow down. But I think the challenge we have is, wellbeing has almost become one of those things, it's just become another thing to do. So we then are like, well, we've got to drink and meditate and do our yoga and do our exercise. And it all just becomes another list of things to beat ourselves up about not doing and I just don't think it is, I don't think it's those things that actually allow us to be well, I think it's this internal state of, can I do this with ease? What are the choices I'm making? Is this sustainable? And, you know, for a lot of things, people, it will be the basics of sleeping, making sure we're hydrated, making sure we get outside once a day, but I think we all have to, we all know what that means. But it's that asking ourselves like, am I treating myself like I matter? Or actually, have I not even considered what I might need to be well, you know, because I put everyone else first. So I think it's that, I think it's partly what we talked about earlier, you know, it's about boundaries a little bit about what's okay and what's not okay. But I think the other thing with place that's useful Joy is not feeling like we have to do that on our own. So actually being with other people that also help us feel well. So that can be friends or family. But I think often for a lot of people when they're busy. What goes or we default to task, you know, and actually, sometimes it's prioritising the being with someone else that can I think, really help
Joy Burnford: Absolutely, and being with the right people, as you say, it's kind of those who fuel fuel you and give you energy. Really important. And you just mentioned about boundaries, I think be great to talk a little bit about boundaries between work and personal life, because it does come up a lot in conversations I have with with women in particular, particularly those that work from home. So do you have any advice about how we manage those boundaries? We talked a little bit about saying no to things, but any other thoughts around boundaries?
Sophie Stephenson: Yeah, so I love Brene Brown's definition of boundaries, which is what's okay and what's not okay. Because that requires us to determine it. And so we can only decide that. But what I found really helpful with boundaries is, boundaries aren't a way of keeping things out. They're not barriers that we need to defend. They're actually a way of saying, well, this is what's in, this is what's okay. And actually sometimes things aren't okay. So I think getting clearer on that is, is really helpful. And when I was thinking about this, there's something about like, boundaries shouldn't need to be defended. Like, we shouldn't have to armour up around our boundaries. And I think the only reason we ever justify boundaries is when we haven't justified them to ourselves, so we feel like we have to seek approval or be told they're okay. And so I think it's, what's most useful with boundaries is working out actually what's okay and what's not for ourselves. Because then we can communicate it clearly and with kindness, and we can say no, nicely. So I think the first step is working out, actually, what what do I want, like what's most important in my life at this stage, because it will change.
Joy Burnford: And I'm just picturing, as you're talking about that I'm just picturing a sort of a house in the middle of a kind of field with a with a really nice fence around, you know, a really pretty fence around it not with great big barriers, it's actually you've decided that that's what you want in your space. And, and people know that, and they don't come past your gate unless you're invited in. So it's kind of that I was sort of picturing that image as you were talking about having, you know, being great big boulders up and everything else. And it's not about that at all. It's about as you say, being clear about what you want in your space. I guess is a, you know, that was just something that came to me as we were as you were chatting then.
Sophie Stephenson: Yeah, I think the challenge is Joy that when we're not clear on those priorities, other people's priorities, that other people have priorities. And so I think in order for that to be easeful is that we've got to get comfortable that some people might not like that. Like, some people might get annoyed at us being clear on what we want, or not. And that's okay. You know, and that and those feelings belong to them. But we're okay because we've made a choice for ourselves or our families or our work. But I do think we have to be comfortable that sometimes people aren't going to like that.
Joy Burnford: Yeah, absolutely. So, is there anything else about the sort of the components that you think are particularly relevant to wellbeing and self care that you wanted to sort of highlight?
Sophie Stephenson: There's lots of them, I think the one that's really helpful to allow ourselves to at least think about is is about feelings. So we think and feel almost simultaneously. So there's arguments about what comes first. But for most people most of the time, if we want to think well, we need to allow ourselves to feel whatever it is we're feeling. So whether that's anxious, frustrated, exhilarated, wonderful. But often things will happen. And we'll have a feeling response to something. And we don't actually ever allow that to be released sufficiently. So the best analogy I've ever read about this was about like, feelings are sort of like tunnels. So there's a start, and there's a middle, and there's an end. But a feeling needs to be felt like that's its purpose. It doesn't need to be rationalised, it needs to be felt is a feeling state. And if you feel something, you just work your way through that tunnel. And then at the end of it, you can think more clearly. And I think so often, especially as busy working mums, we never get time to actually allow ourselves to feel anything like we're just on, like, keep going. And then we have a holiday or and then we just collapse or we you know, speak to a friend or we are suddenly feeling really resentful about something or we burst on something. And it's like, actually, who are the people or where are the spaces where you can allow yourself to feel whatever it is you're feeling? And I love that when you're thinking about the confidence, you know that that word sits in the same family doesn't it as confidant. And I think sometimes having a confidence, having somebody else you trust, to share how you're feeling to share your experiences, is a beautiful way of nourishing ourselves.
Joy Burnford: And that's why coaches are so wonderful as well. So if you could give our listeners one top tip from the thinking environment, what would that be? I know that's a difficult question.
Sophie Stephenson: Oh, my goodness, this was the only question I was like, Joy, how can I answer this? One tip would be to prioritise time to think. So if you can't do that on your own without sabotaging it, find someone else to think with. So a friend, a colleague, somebody, but making time for yourself, you don't need loads, it's not like a week, you need like half an hour here or there. Making time where you can explore how you're thinking and what you're feeling without interruption. That's what I would start with.
Joy Burnford: I'm going to make it my mission to do that this week. So if people want to find out more about you and your work, tell them where they can go. And then we'll also put a link in the show notes.
Sophie Stephenson: Thank you. So my sort of online home is my website, which is just www.thethinkingproject.co.uk. I'm on Twitter, which is @thethinkproj and you can find me on LinkedIn. But I would say go to my website, I send out a monthly newsletter, that's probably the best place for people to connect.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Sophie Stephenson: Thank you Joy.
Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.
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Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.