Understanding yourself, your mindset and your values
Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting to the Top’ and I’m delighted to welcome Lin Yue as my guest. Today, we’ll be talking about the importance of learning about yourself, your mindset, and your values.
A big thank you to Gail Morgan Style for sponsoring this season. Focusing on mindset, colours, style and wardrobe management, Gail has inspired me and thousands of other women to increase their visibility, impact, and influence by reducing wardrobe overwhelm and confusion. She truly is a master of her craft and completely understands how the ‘right’ clothes can immediately increase your confidence and credibility. Gail Morgan Style is offering our listeners 15% off all colour analysis sessions, and any of her other styling services, when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.
About this episode
Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting to the Top’ and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips, to inspire you in your career.
I'm delighted to welcome Lin Yue as my guest today. Lin is an executive director at Goldman Sachs, and a multi award winning thought leader on the intersection of diversity, culture and psychology to business. She's an amazing thinker and joins me today to talk about her recent return from maternity, and the importance of learning about yourself, your mindset, and your values.
Resources
Gail Morgan Style: Gail Morgan Style is offering our listeners 15% off all colour analysis sessions, and any of her other styling services, when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.
Episode transcript
Joy Burnford: Good morning Lin, and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.
Lin Yue: Thank you so much for having me.
Joy Burnford: It's lovely to have you. And as you know, the theme for this season is all about getting to the top. So today, we're going to chat about your background, your career, some of the challenges you've experienced and in particular returning from maternity, and advice for other women wanting to reach the top. And I just wanted to let our listeners know that you're going to be talking in your own personal capacity today and it's your views rather than those of your employer. And I'm delighted you agreed to be on the podcast. I'm also excited that we're both judges for the Rising Star Awards later this month, which I'm very excited about. So let's talk a little bit about your background and career. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you do now and how you've reached where you are today.
Lin Yue: I have spent the last decade in the City of London so day to day I work with institutional investors in the UK. Before my life in finance, I was trained as an experimental psychologist. So this understanding of behavioural science is incredibly helpful for everything that I do, in my view, to say, you know, 100% of our clients are people, 100% of employees are people. So if you don't understand people, you don't really understand business. So there's a curiosity that I have about human minds and human behaviour that was very instrumental in what I do from looking at the financial markets to understanding the decision making process, from how to drive performance and work as a leader to how to bring the best of ourselves to the office as an employee. But if I take a step back, before my study in the UK, I grew up in mainland China, as someone born after the one child policy, I think what is interesting about our life story is how that coincides with this unprecedented growth that China has experienced for the past four decades. There was some analysis that measuring this pace of change based on the GDP per capita data. So China during 1990 to now have changes 32 times that is 16 times more than the US. So all we have experienced in our life was transition and change. And then I distinctively remember, my first interaction was the West. You know, I was about four years old. And then that was the first time I saw this western TV advert. It was a Head and Shoulders, a shampoo advert, I was intrigued as it was to find out what dandruff really was. I think I was just equally amazed by the advancement. It is commercially represented. It was back then, despite my very young age. I remember I said to myself, I want to see more of that, I want to be part of that world. So it was that same curiosity that really drove me through education, learning English, achieving a degree in the UK as well as working in the financial service sector. I think at some level that little girl's dream almost came true. I mean, at least I don't have any dandruff! But I think that curiosity of the world has really put me into a position to work with British clients directly. So I think the last piece, as you mentioned, is really, I returned to work from maternity very recently, and they say, when a child was born, so was the mother. And I think in my case, that just couldn't be more true. I see this as a greater opportunity to be set, to embrace my different identities, as a professional, as a mum, as a carer for my mum, as a wife, as a woman, as ethnic minority, as an advocate, all of the above, to be just more purposeful about my life, and really make a bigger impact.
Joy Burnford: Wow, that's amazing. I love that you've embraced that and looking at all the positives from your time off work. So tell me, what do you think's helped you most in your career?
Lin Yue: I think of when we think about that, and there are, let's say, sponsors, mentors, or professional networks, for example. And I will say all of the above are super important, because one of the most important things that I have learned is really how different work is compared to say, study, because when we study that's much more like a linear system. So you study hard, that leads to good results, and which leads to your success as a student, it just, it took me quite a long time to understand that work works completely differently, right? It's no longer a linear system, where you input it doesn't necessarily mean a result, at least not the timeframe that you often expect. So I think there are so many variables into this process. And that means it doesn't have a right or wrong answer a lot of the time and then this information about the rulebook of work isn't handed to us like the university textbooks anymore. So I think all of it, it just says that it requires us to have a different mentality to piece together the information ourselves. So I think in this context, the mentors, the sponsors and networks, they're also important for us to piece together our version of the answer of our career strategy. So I think for me, the progressing one's career requires this different type of learning that really informed my strategy now to develop myself professionally, I think it just takes a lot of intention, deliberate practice, investment, and commitment but this mindset is probably the most important thing because we need to purposefully cultivate sponsors, mentors, networks, these are the secret sources for success, these are necessary, these are not just nice to have, and there's every bit of our career success.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And that linear structure thinking you can just put your head down and work hard, that you'll be recognised for that, just doesn't happen. And so many people don't realise that, they just think I'm going to work hard, like I've always worked hard, and somebody's going to promote me. And sadly, it just doesn't happen, does it? So you've talked a little bit about success. But what does it really mean to you? And how has that changed over time? And has your opinion changed over the years?
Lin Yue: You know, it changes so much. I guess maybe being on maternity leave is a catalyst to have some headspace to reflect on this, I think there was a period of that my identity, my self worth was entirely linked to my career, and my life was involving exclusively about work. You know, I'm one of those annoying people. If there's something on Friday evening that needs to be done, I would just happily drop everything to be like, give the work to me, to more work. So I think I realised now this is not a very sustainable way of working. But what I also realised that I was not that annoying person, it was how I was brought up. Because, you know, growing up in China, especially as I mentioned about economic reform, everybody was so obsessed with the success because they didn't have the opportunity before. So that just means success only comes to the only thing that matters, and that if you go to a bookstore, by the way, in China, you will see a huge selection of books that's called success books. You just won't see it anywhere, not even in America, that just tells you how much people are obsessed with that. So I guess that was my relationship with success because that was how I was brought up. And then certainly I just experienced this firsthand because you know, if I go back to China and then people repeatedly told me that I'm not ambitious enough, whereas here in the UK, I think the opposite could be true I've never heard there's something called you can be too ambitious, especially as women so I think both are problematic and then probably need to address them but I think you know, by this standard, I probably have already failed massively especially, you know, I've taken two maternity leaves I've taken almost a full year off just to look after my mum in China. So when she was critically ill, you know, that's what you do as a single child. But I think because of this experience, also, this definition of success have massively changed for me, especially as I now have different dimensions of my life. So I guess, I'd see why success was measured this way. Because, you know, money is much easier to measure, read your net worth improved 10% is much easier to understand than, say, you're 10% happier than next last year, or you're 10% less anxious. I mean, what does that even mean? Right. But I, I think those external factors that link to materialistic things, first class travel, or whatever, you just got to think of who is selling us this anxiety, because if we're not anxious, who are they going to sell their anti ageing creams to, so understanding all of this, you know, the different dimensions of my life, you know, the drivers of success being imposed on us, I think, is very liberating. Because now I have a choice in terms of how I react to those external factors, it doesn't mean that we are not, we're immune from the external factors. But there's a difference, I think, between approval and affirmation. So not that we don't care about validations. But it's like a nice to have is not driving my entire self worth. And I think that's really the biggest change.
Joy Burnford: As you say, it's good to hear it, see it, and then say, thank you for showing me that. And actually, I'm going to ignore that. Brilliant. So moving on to your personal life. As you said, you've just returned from maternity leave after having your daughter. And I wondered, how's the transition back to work going? I know you've only been back a week or so. But I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Lin Yue: I have to say yes, it's gone exceptionally well to my own surprise. And I have no doubt that there is an element of adrenaline here. So do check in with me. Yeah. But I think what really made me notice about this notion of anxiety is I've just anticipated so much, you know, and then I think that's because we just keep thinking about all the things have gone wrong, you know, what if the commute is bad. What if I haven't been back to the office for two years since COVID? What does that mean? What if my daughter's not coping? How about all the changes have happened in business? What about the new strategies, new people? And then I start to worry about what happens to my say, new healthy habits of eating or exercise if I don't have time? How do I cope if my daughter is not well? And she, by the way, has been waking up at least twice a night for the past 365 days. So I did wonder about how do I stay awake at work, for example. So I think, you know, yes, it is week one, but I've already learned something because I've learned one, this anticipation of the anxiety is probably the worst. And then secondly is you know, when we are thinking about going back, why we're so anxious is because we're thinking about the entirety of the task. But when we're actually start doing that, we're actually doing it one day at a time, right? So you're only dealing with that day, the first day of work. So I think that really puts me understanding this perspective. So anxiety is helpful for us to help with the planning, but it really is not our entire reality. So the first week back was nowhere near as bad as I thought so perhaps, you know, I can tell though, my worry this time, and then going forward, I can use this as an input, and then just see this is reality. And then I don't have to be as anxious.
Joy Burnford: Yes. So rather than what if, perhaps we should just say let's see what happens. It's so interesting to hear you say that because as you know, in my book I'm writing, which is being published at the end of this year, I've got a whole section on the what ifs. And I've listed these out because you know, pretty much everything you've said it's not you that's having these thoughts is every woman I've think I've ever spoken to who has returned from maternity leave, has had these thoughts. So tell me a little bit about how you're managing the juggle of returning to work being a mum and working. Am I right and thinking your daughter has goes to a creche at work? How has that been working?
Lin Yue: Yes, she is actually. I took her again a few times during the Keep in touch days you know as a natural planner. I wanted to get that before I returned but the data point that I had at that point was that she was quite young so she cried so much the nursery had to call me within the first hour informing me and then within two hours they asked me to take her away. I think she traumatised a few members of staff there and they will be like Oh God no, not her again. So naturally I thought this will be a repeat, but I guess what I didn't take into account is actually she is now much older so she was doing exceptionally well, this time, nobody could believe she was the same baby. And then I didn't do anything different. So sometimes I think we do have to be more kind of open minded because of that. But I think, you know, to your point about how do we manage work and then family, and that's thought of quite a bit of that during my maternity leave, because it won't surprise you to know that. That's one of the most frequently asked questions that we face as women. And I used to give answers right away, such as just be more focused, prioritise more time management, etc. But having the second child I started to see this is maybe not the right question to ask. I clearly didn't know what I was talking about. But it wasn't just my answers wasn't that helpful, it's maybe that was the wrong question. Because why do we, not necessarily you asked this, but I thought a lot about this work life balance thing, because why there is a balance to begin with, because to me, that seems to imply there is some game, that means you know, the work and life are on the opposite side. So if I want to be a better mum, or good enough, mum, in most cases, then my work will suffer. My professional life will not progress as much as I'd like, and my career ended up paying a price. But you know, there is another scenario, which is even worse than the first one for me, if I want to be a better employee, go for that promotion, or even just the level the playing field that then I'm going to be a worst mum for my children. So I think it is that kind of a mentality of zero sum that something has to give really makes me think that I don't want to subscribe to that view. And then maybe there is my own version of my success that I can craft, because I don't want to have two versions of myself as well. You know, one is the work version one is the mum version, we all know how exhausting it is and maintaining different identities. And then also, you know, if I don't get it all together, I will be failing. I mean, we talked about this external standards. So I think it really refreshed my thinking, to look at all this motion and then see, perhaps there is a way that we can craft ourselves. There was this quote that I quite liked, by the way, it says do the best until you know better. And once you know better, do better. I think that probably summarised quite well, in terms of testing their mentality for that.
*** Joy Burnford: I do hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about my reasons for doing this podcast. At My Confidence Matters our mission is to work together to navigate a path to gender equality through building confidence and capability. I’m passionate about enabling every woman to have the confidence to progress in their career, and I love talking to, and sharing women’s stories to inspire others. This podcast forms a small part of what we do, and if you think there’s room for improvement in the way your organisation understands and manages the issues, barriers and obstacles that women face in the workplace, please do get in touch or tell your HR contact about us.
And don’t forget, developing a consistent personal brand can help you build your confidence and achieve your ambitions. So, if something as simple as clothes is standing between you and success, the amazing Gail at Gail Morgan Style is offering you 15% of all colour analysis and other services when you reference this podcast.***
Joy Burnford: I was actually talking to somebody this weekend who said somebody returned to work after 25 years of being a mother and not working. And I said, Wow, that's amazing think of all those skills this person's gained. You know, I think a lot of women in that situation will be thinking what have I got to give and I can't remember anything about work and I'm so lacking in confidence. I think actually you need to flip it and think how much you more you've learned in those 25 years of managing a house, organising children's birthday parties, negotiation, communication, etc. And just generally juggling a million and one things.
Lin Yue: One maybe is to liberate ourselves from those standards that, you know, whatever, like those voices tell us we can't have it all or we need to have it all otherwise we're failing. I think if we take the ownership about, this is what my success looks like. And then I think that can be quite liberating to begin with. So I think that's kind of the mindset of course, there's a whole practical element of that, and how do you think about it, but I think you know, there's no doubt in my mind that being a mum can bring so many different skill sets to work and I'm a much better employee, a much better leader since I've had children. So I think it is really to see this as one continuum that the skill sets that you learned from home can be totally relevant to work and vice versa. So kind of break down those barriers.
Joy Burnford: I always say that being a mum was the hardest job I've ever done, you know, actually going to work is pretty easy for me in comparison. So today, we've talked a bit about maternity leave. And if anybody would like to listen more about advice around this, you might want to listen back to Episode 17 when I recorded a podcast with Jessica Chivers, who is the author of Mother's Work!, which is all about coming back from maternity leave and confidence. So if you haven't had a listen to that, do have a listen if you're interested in this subject. So let's talk a little bit about challenges and some of the challenges you've experienced along the way. We spoke a little bit about how you grew up in China before moving to the UK. And I'd love it if you could describe a little bit about what it was like in your early career being in a minority, both as a woman and Chinese. And I wonder has that changed over time as you've reached more senior roles?
Lin Yue: I think moving from China to the UK has really been a very transformative experience, because I was one of the majority, it is 1.4 billion people. So all of a sudden, I have become a minority in the City of London. I mean, at the very beginning, I realised that people's perceptions of me are just so different from what I was used to before. So for example, as this Chinese person working in finance, I must be very good at maths, very good at exams. I mean, I didn't really identify as much of that it's not untrue, but I was like, Okay, fine. So far, so good. Then I realised, you know, the number of times people just assume I have this national advantage over a ping pong, you know, that was just staggering. Like, I have nothing to do with the sport. But I have been invited to all sorts of those tournaments. And I've also found that this experiences going out with my colleagues, you know, on Friday night drinks, which is terrifying, because not only that keeping up with their drinking was very challenging, but I think more scarily is I honestly didn't have enough interesting conversations to sustain all night. And I also couldn't understand why one had to stand all night when there were seats available. And I mean, why did they choose to suffer, and, I also just kept waiting for the food to appear. So I think, you know, after the evening, physically, I was tired from standing hungry from lack of food. But that was nothing compared with what I was experiencing emotionally because I felt there was a different version of me was created in the eyes of my British colleagues. I'm not sure what that was but it was certainly not, you know, this interesting person that I thought I was and that was really difficult to to deal with, I guess I just hadn't realise this enormity of the task of moving from another country that is so culturally distinct, but also more and more you know, at work, there is also evidence to suggest there is a huge challenge and what we call this bamboo ceiling. So it means the East Asians, the Chinese, we have one of the lowest chances of rising to management. So there is a study that highlights if you're a Chinese woman, the cultural factor is actually three to four times worse than the gender factor. And then when people put all the Asian groups together, is actually quite a division between South Asians and then the East Asians because the bamboo ceiling is actually quite specific to the East Asians and Chinese. So I think for this reasons that we told that the reality is we are most likely to be hired because of the academic results. But we're least likely to be promoted. And then I think that really shaped some of my experience, especially confronted with this huge ambition that we have had growing up in a country, like China for the past four decades. So what had really helped me was a few pivotal moments. I think the first one is because of tick, say, the gender and the risk box, I just thought I was just so different. But what helped me to shift this focus is to realise actually fine, I am different. But how much of that is different, let's say maybe 10 to 20%. You know, there is no scientific measure. I'm just putting a number out there. But what it says to me is actually 80, 90% of the time, I'm the same as everyone else. What about that commonality. So the starting point to look for commonalities for me it has been really liberating, because there's intersectionality, and commonality that really offered opportunities to change this narrative. And then the second element, I think, is just decoding this influence, as I mentioned earlier, you know, so if I didn't enjoy Friday night drinks, it wasn't me, it was my culture. So knowing that I realised I can focus on what really needs to change is not who I am, it is about a different set of behaviours, just to be specific to the situations and, and then and really, it's about the organisations that need to be more inclusive. So again, that that is very, very liberating. And by the way, I feel so much better at drinking now. I think maybe the last one I would just mention is it's just not enough to lean in. Because our organisations, they were not set up with everyone in mind. So that's why Friday night drinks was the norm. But I think the more that you fit with this ideal worker archetype, you know, being a middle aged white man who doesn't have childcare responsibilities, who engage in a very competitive and exclusive leadership style, the more you fit in, the easier it is for you to progress and the opposite is true. So I think a lot of the challenges are not my challenges, they are structural reasons. So I think it's important to recognise that to liberate ourselves from 'I need to be fixed, there's something wrong with me'. And then I think that has been really helpful to look at the commonalities and then really drive changes to be part of the movement.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And it's music to my ears, hearing you say that, it's brilliant. So as you know, this podcast is all about confidence and you seem to me to be a very confident person. And I wondered, you know, have you ever experienced any confidence challenges? How have you overcome them?
Lin Yue: Well, I think confidence can be just a perception. But I think what's more important is to understand the realities that we're in, I see confidence as much more like, like a muscle. So it's not dissimilar to what we said about, you know, the career is not a linear system. And then we test and learn it, we do the best until we know better type of mentality. But also I think there is, it took me quite a long time to realise this, you know, what influences our confidence. And I will give you a very specific example of that, because in China, for example, we have this concept that the loudest dog could get shot, you know, that is to say, it's a very hierarchical nature, and then the leadership relationship is very different from the American firm. So who believes is the squeaky wheels get the grease. So I guess, you know, it won't surprise you to hear then with that belief that, at the beginning of my career, I was repeatedly told to speak up. And I was like, Okay, fine. I was shocked by those questions initially, because I was like, I'm just paying you my respect. But it taught me No, you know, you have to speak up. So I literally felt like my heart was pounding so badly, because it was that dog that was about to get shot. So you just literally felt like you have to go against something that you fundamentally believe in. But it took me quite a while to understand what was really going on in the meetings. Because when I didn't say things, those are three things are happening in my mind, because one, you know, I was waiting for my cue to speak. Because we were told it is rude to talk over each other. And two I was paying my respect, read, we don't want to be this lot of stuff. And three is, we don't want to give kind of half baked comments, because we're told to only speak up when your answers are perfect. But you know, what's going on in my colleagues minds, you know, they also have three things that are happening. One is, I didn't have any views. Two is I have poor communication skills, and three is I am not confident. And then I think to your point, these are pretty damaging perceptions for the organization's but nobody has really decoded it for me, other than just asking you to speak up. So I think my point here is that the fact that I didn't speak up has nothing to do with my confidence, it's actually really important that we understand this. And then because there are a lot of people who don't naturally speak up, be it your introvert, you're from a different socio economic background, or means that you could be new, or you're from a different team, whatever that might be. I think we need to see this disconnection between our ability and the perception. So when we lack confidence, what is the reason for that? And once we know that we can naturally be much more confident, because we know what's us and what is not us. And then they gave us the choice to be much more in control.
Joy Burnford: Really interesting to hear you say that confidence is a muscle. That's something I talk about a lot as well, so you can learn to be more confident. I think a lot of people feel that you're either born confident or not confident. And actually it is a skill that can be learned and developed, just like going to the gym to work out your other muscles. So I wonder if there's any advice that you'd now give to your younger self? Is there anything you would have done differently? Or anything you wish you'd known when you started out in your career?
Lin Yue: There are so many I think, by the way, the research for example, shows that our best guidance that what we could have done differently involves, you know, believing your gut reaction, reminding yourself that everybody makes mistakes. Try not to worry too much, being honest and helpful, loving yourself and not putting things off until tomorrow. So this theme about confidence, awareness, and taking life at a steady pace, I think that is really very much resonating with me, because I thought, the longest journey I've taken was from the west to the east, from China to the City of London. But now I realised, actually, the longest journey is between my head and my heart. Because if you think a lot of things that cannot just be learned or studied, it's, they're there to be experienced. So I think that you know, if anything that I can tell my younger self is to really make a commitment to really understand ourselves, and then to see what makes us and then with that, that becomes the freedom, the choice and the growth.
Joy Burnford: So to finish Lin, I wondered, could you perhaps highlight your one top tip for other women, particularly those from ethnic minorities, who want to advance in their careers? You've given us so many wonderful tips today, and I'm sure, there's lots of things for people to think about. But if you could distil it into one tip, what would that be?
Lin Yue: I think it's probably the advice I give to myself is make a commitment to learning about yourself. So I think internally, that means understanding what influences your behaviour mindset, values, but equally important is to understand how our brain and body works, you know, from this two system of the brain to the connection between body and the mind, I think understanding that will help us to be most resourceful, and then bring the most of our cognitive abilities to work. So this is really important, not just for us just for work, but also for our loved ones. But externally, I think that also, it's really important to see those structural reasons that how we are perceived to see us as not the problem that needs fixing, but actually part of the solution. So I think that will empower us to join forces with others and really cultivate a different culture and mobilise resources. So this self awareness, both externally and internally, that creates the space that I mentioned between the stimulus and response. And that's really where our personal professional growth lies in my view.
Joy Burnford: Thank you so much, Lin, for joining me today. It's been an absolute delightful conversation.
Lin Yue: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure.
Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.
And remember you can get 15% off all virtual and in-person colour analysis sessions and other services at Gail Morgan Style when you reference this podcast. To book, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.
Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.