Wellbeing at work
Our focus for this Season is on ‘Wellbeing & self-care’ and I’m delighted to welcome Debbie Bullock as my guest to talk about wellbeing at work.
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About this episode
Our focus for this season is on wellbeing and self-care and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips to help you manage your wellbeing alongside your career.
Today I'm joined by Debbie Bullock, the award winning Wellbeing Lead at Aviva, who shares with me some of the great work the organisation is doing to support its people. This episode is useful for anyone who is responsible for the health and wellbeing of their staff, and anyone who is in search of a healthier life.
Resources
NHS Live well: www.nhs.uk/live-well
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Coach Matters has also made its business development masterclasses and Nourish wellbeing series available to non-members for a small fee. For more details, visit www.coachmatters.co.uk/events
Episode transcript
Joy Burnford: Good afternoon, Debbie, and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.
Debbie Bullock: Good afternoon, and thank you for having me.
Joy Burnford: It's really nice to have you on the podcast. And as you know, the the theme for this season is wellbeing and self-care. So today we're going to chat about your background and career, the importance of managing wellbeing and self-care alongside work, and what organisations, line managers and colleagues can do to support employees and others at work, and as Wellbeing Lead at Aviva you're the absolute perfect interviewee for this season of the podcast. When we spoke a few weeks ago, I thought it would just be absolutely brilliant to have you on the podcast. So it's it's wonderful. So to start off, perhaps you could tell me a little bit about your background and your career and how you've reached where you are today.
Debbie Bullock: Yes, certainly. So I joined Aviva or General Accident, as it was back in the day when I left school at 16. And I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do to be honest. But I got a job, what was in the marketing department then, worked my way up through various parts of the marketing department, learning as I went and growing. And one of the benefits of working for a large organisation like Aviva and its predecessors is there are lots of different areas. So while I haven't changed company during my career, I've certainly changed roles. So I went on from marketing through, I've done roles in public affairs and corporate social responsibility, you know, I've worked closely with our brand and sponsorship teams. I finished with 13 years in corporate responsibility looking after our employee fundraising, matching and charity partnerships, before four years ago, I moved into our people function, as we call our HR team, and to lead the role of the wellbeing team for the wel being programme for our colleagues, specifically in the UK.
Joy Burnford: Amazing. And when I think we first spoke and you told me been at Aviva for more than 30 years, I was just like, I can't remember the last time I've spoken to anybody who's been in a job for that long, so congratulations and well done for being there for so long.
Debbie Bullock: It brings a different, it creates really good networks, but it's about continually changing and being still open to new opportunities and new growth. So one example of that is very recently I've just completed, supported by Aviva, a chartered management degree apprenticeship. So having left school at 16, with no further education or higher education qualifications, I've literally just graduated with a first class honours degree in management and leadership from York St. John University, through an apprenticeship. So as long as you're keen and willing to keep learning and exploring, staying with one company isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Joy Burnford: No, it's brilliant. It's amazing. And what I'm talking about constantly, is about how to retain women so organisations can, you know, hold on to, well, men and women, but you know, women in particular, when they potentially, you know, drop off the career ladder for longer periods of time. So that's fantastic. So tell me a little bit about what your role involves now.
Debbie Bullock: So I manage the strategy and delivery of the wellbeing programme for our colleagues in the UK. That includes managing our partnerships with external suppliers, and managing a team. So I have a team whose role is supporting wellbeing of our colleagues. So we'll be looking at communications and campaigns and activities that we can do, as well as the benefits we might provide so that we create the right culture, as well as providing the right benefits. So that kind of strategic direction. Part of my role also involves supporting wider areas of the business with their role where health and wellbeing might form part of the services we offer to our corporate customers or our individual clients and bring a wellbeing practitioners viewpoint to that. So that's kind of my day to day role, obviously, there's budget management, supplier management, that element of it, but the strategy and delivery is key. I also work really closely with people function colleagues in our Canada and Ireland markets to help them deliver and develop their wellbeing strategies for our colleagues over there. Altogether Aviva employs about 24,000 people, but about 15,500 of those are in the UK, which is my primary responsibility.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant. And as you know, this podcast season is all about wellbeing and self-care. So I'd love to start by asking you what wellbeing means to you personally, and also from an organization's perspective as Wellbeing Lead.
Debbie Bullock: So for me personally, it's an element of happy and comfortable. So just comfortable in where you are in the world, how you are physically, mentally, but also how things are gelling together, just being generally happy, I find. Happy and kind are the key words I use a lot when we talk about wellbeing. And that applies to your personal situation as well as your workplace situation. So it's that kind of comfortableness, is I don't think that's the proper word, but, you know, and accepting things if they're in a good place. So that's what wellbeing means to me personally.
Joy Burnford: That's brilliant. I was actually chatting to my brother in law last week on holiday, and we were talking about values within organisations. And I was saying, I think the best value that any organisation could have is happiness. If you have a happiness value, and everybody can be happy, I think you can't go wrong with that can you. So, as you know, I've written a book called Don't Fix Women: The practical path to gender equality at work, which is out in November. And in that I write about the obstacles that women face at work. So I'd love it if we could chat a bit about some of those, and how they can impact an individual's sense of wellbeing. So the first one that I talk about is caring responsibilities. And I know you have experience of this with your son, you know, how have you managed your caring role, and what's helped you? How has Aviva helped you manage that in particular?
Debbie Bullock: So I think one of the key areas is for line managers, leaders to have an understanding of what your personal situation is, and for you to feel safe and secure in your role enough to be able to share that openly with your leader. So over the past, so my son is 23 now, but since he was five, he's had ongoing conditions probably a little bit earlier, but we didn't know then. And he has a mitochondrial condition. And it's resulted in lots of hospital stays, and operations and various things like that. So being given the understanding, and flexibility to work around that. Because I can still deliver my job, if I can make it flexible and make it work OK. So what's worked for me is having managers who will understand that and want to keep you and keep your information and your knowledge, but also realise that actually, you're more than your work, you've got everything else in your life as well. So I think from a caring responsibility, that's crucial. And Aviva, we have two policies which carers can use. So we have carers leave, which is planned carers leave, and you can take 35 hours a year for that, and then unplanned carers leave for those emergency situations and you can take 35 hours a year for that, on top of that, then obviously, you've got holiday and unpaid leave if you needed it and making flexible working adjustments and things like that. So there's lots of different support out there. But how that actually feels as an employee, for me, was all based on how supportive my line manager was at the time. And that's the key really to get to get an understanding of who works for you. That's what makes it work.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And the second in the book, which I think is very linked to the first point actually about the flexibility and the support of line managers. And the second one is about hormonal challenges which I talk about in the book as the four Ms which is menopause, maternity, miscarriage and monthlies which can have a huge impact for women on wellbeing. So I talk a lot about what workplaces can do to support women in these areas, you know, later this podcast, but how important is it for any listeners who are currently suffering with hormonal challenges to seek and ask for support at work? And do you have any advice around that? Particularly bearing in mind these can be taboo topics in some workplaces, and also the flexibility work is important, but is there any other advice around that?
Debbie Bullock: Yeah, I think both from an individual and workplace perspective, the first thing is is to start to remove the stigma around these topics. Some things can be highly personal and people don't want to, and aren't ready to share them at work. So baby loss, pregnancy loss, miscarriage, that kind of thing. You might not be ready to share that but where you can ,remove this stigma around it, talk openly about it. So I do frequently. And I see that as part of my role. So I'm perimenopausal, so I have no problem sharing with any colleague. If I'm currently experiencing a memory lapse where I can't remember something, I'll say, I'm really sorry, that's because I'm perimenopausal and just introducing it into everyday conversation and help remove some of those stigmas. So that that's something both individuals and employers can work on together, that kind of removing the stigma and the taboo around it, and having more open conversations about these things. The second thing from a workplace perspective goes again to having well equipped line managers. So in the same way with caring responsibilities, line managers who understand what support they can and might be able to offer to these individuals helps. So providing training for them, which is something we've done at Aviva, but also letting individual employees know that their managers will be supportive, so that they feel as though they can be open in addressing that issue. My manager certainly knows that I'm perimenopausal and what that might mean, at certain times, they know I'm a carer. And one of the ways we facilitate that actually, at Aviva is something called a Workplace Adjustment Passport. So that's a tool, it's certainly nothing extravagant. It's a Word document, a Microsoft Word document that we've given some pointer questions for people to fill in. And you fill that in as an individual and it helps stimulate a conversation between you and your leader. And then you can save that on your HR record. And so if you move between jobs, it's still there, you don't have to have the same conversations again and again. And it evolves over time with you. So things that you might need support for. And we use it for a various number of things, not just women, and those four monthly things. But anything from, you know, say menopause, and you were having night sweats, and it meant you weren't sleeping very well. So actually, you'd benefit from a later start in the day, that might be documented on a Workplace Adjustment Passport, but that might be temporary, you know, you might sort that out and then there might be something else. We also use it for our colleagues with disabilities, if they need physical adjustments in the workplace, or to support their mental wellbeing. It's just a really simple tool that opens the conversation between the individual and the line manager. And I think the other thing that I would do is, from an individual point of view is when we're thinking about what we say in the workplace and how we react in the workplace, is try and remove ourselves from looking at ourselves, if you see what I mean and consider what you would do and share within a fellow employee or colleague. We are so much kinder and understanding to our colleagues than we often are to ourselves. So we just need to take a fresh perspective sometimes and say, what advice would I give my partner, my colleague, my friend in those situations, and then think about how we might act on that.
Joy Burnford: That's brilliant advice. And I think when we last spoke I've been using, and I hope you don't mind, I've been using that Workplace Adjustment Passport example and telling lots of people about it, because everybody has said, that's such a great idea, such a great idea. So hopefully other organisations are picking that up and putting some of that in place. And it's so important and such a great idea.
Debbie Bullock: So the Workplace Adjustment Passport also has several different titles, it can be called a wellness action plan or various different things. And it's really easy to implement, quite often when I'm talking about wellbeing people will say to me, it's alright for you, you're at a very large company, you've probably got money to invest. But there are several things an organisation can do to support overall wellbeing that cost nothing. And the Workplace Adjustment Passport, wellness action plan, whatever you call it is one of those things that cost nothing to introduce.
*** Joy Burnford: I really hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about my reasons for doing this podcast. My mission is to work together to navigate a path to gender equality. I’m passionate about enabling every woman to have the confidence to progress in their career, and I love talking to, and sharing women’s stories to inspire others. This podcast forms a small part of what we do, and if you think there’s room for improvement in the way your organisation understands and manages the obstacles that women face in the workplace, please get in touch or tell your HR contact about us.
And don’t forget, Coach Matters is offering you 3 month’s free membership of its network when you reference this podcast. Their business development masterclasses and their series of wellbeing events are also now available to non-members. See Coach Matters to find out more. ***
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. So in the book, I also talk about confidence as an obstacle for women at work. And as this is The Confidence Conversation podcast, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on whether confidence levels can impact our sense of well being?
Debbie Bullock: Very much so. I think there's an element of self confidence and that can be impacted if you're feeling unwell. I have a phrase that if you don't make time for wellness, you'll have to make time for illness. And that can impact your confidence directly. So if you're feeling stressed, whether that be due to physical reasons, mental wellbeing reasons, financial wellbeing reasons, or you're feeling excluded, you're not working in an inclusive environment. Or if there's no, you're worried about the taboos around certain topics relating to wellbeing, all of those things can impact on your overall confidence and your ability to speak up and be heard in an organisation, particularly the culture around inclusivity. If you don't have an inclusive culture, your wellbeing will be very poor, and your confidence is likely to be impacted as well. So there's certainly an element of direct impact between your self confidence and the way you feel empowered in your role and in your life and your overall wellbeing and how you feel.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And I know that from personal experience, as well. And as you said, even you know, when you've had a bad night or whatever, and you're then, you know, potentially, if you're looking after a baby, or you know, whatever, and you've had a really broken night's sleep, and you're not feeling at your best, confidence is the first thing that will get knocked as a result. So, so important. So let's move on and talk about what other organisations, line managers and colleagues can do to support their colleagues as we all play a part in creating a culture of wellbeing. So my own research that I carried out during COVID, or the earlier time of COVID, and many respondents said that their managers level of understanding and empathy had increased during the pandemic. And I wondered if you've seen that too. And, you know, what benefits does that bring in more empathetic leadership, and I'm hoping that will stay and continue into the future. But I'd love to know your thoughts on that.
Debbie Bullock: I think there is an element, I think COVID particularly and lots of remote working for organisations where that was the way we moved during periods of lockdown and COVID, created a realisation for many managers that it was a reminder, because we were working from our home environments, that people have lives outside of work, and they are a whole person and quite often seeing, you know, a pet, a small child, a partner appear in the background reminds leaders that, you know, there's a whole person working for them, not just the 9-5 person that shows up for work. So I think that helped leaders, remind them that this is a whole person you're supporting, which created a sense of empathy as well, because they realised just like them, they have lives outside of work as well. So I think there was an element of that, that created that kind of build. It was a challenge for many leaders, if you've never managed a remote workforce before, that did create some challenges in terms of supporting the overall wellbeing of an individual, when you can't see them. So we had quite a few leaders who said before, if I walked into the office, and the usual happy go lucky person was subdued, you'd be able to instantly tell and do a bit of a welfare check, or how are you. I mean, sometimes it could have been they just had a heavy night. But you know, if there was something underlying it, there was more to that, you could physically see it. And obviously in a virtual world, that's harder to do, which makes it even more important for leaders to check in with their team to understand it. But equally, I think what's important is we need our leaders to show their vulnerabilities. So quite often, leaders can be under the misconception that they have to be strong, and all empowered and, you know, my wellbeing is on top form, you know, I'm a okay, but actually, it helps your employees if you can sometimes show your vulnerability as well, the fact that you know, you face these challenges around, managing work life balances, always on, and that kind of vulnerability and honest leadership can really make a difference in terms of how you role model, how you support your wellbeing, and, you know, experiences you might have had in the past that you've overcome, to prove that, actually, if you have a period of anxiety or depression or you know, a medical challenge in some way, that you can actually still go on and succeed and become a senior leader in an organisation. Because that helps other people aspire to that and not think of issues as limitations, but as actually just something that you're dealing with that other people have equally dealt with. So that kind of honest leadership as well as empathetic and that kind of vulnerability is really important for both confidence and wellbeing.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely, and I think it reminds me as well about role modelling behaviours and you know, when you go on holiday, remembering that if you're a manager, not to be emailing people when you're on holiday because then other people then think, oh, I should be emailing when I'm on holiday as well. And that's really, really important. And one thing that isn't always talked about is the potential impact on the wellbeing of those who are supporting others. So whether that's a manager, colleague, or, you know, coaches, you know, they spend a lot of their time supporting other people. And I think I'd love to know if you've got any advice about, you know, people in those situations and how, you know, organisations can be mindful of supporting managers who are potentially taking on, and bearing the brunt of the wellbeing of their teams and that sort of thing.
Debbie Bullock: Yes, that's very true. And actually, when I did my degree apprenticeship, which I mentioned earlier, my management report, at the end, if you like a dissertation was around that very topic, the impact of the physical and mental wellbeing of leaders when supporting the physical and mental wellbeing of others. And there is both a positive and negative impact. So obviously, from a wellbeing perspective, helping someone and then flourishing, makes you feel good. So obviously, there's that side of it. But equally, leaders can be in a position where they're dealing with a lot of other people's problems. So the key thing is, you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. And there are lots of analogies like that, you know, put your oxygen mask on first in an aeroplane, all those kinds of things. So, it is really important that you help leaders or colleagues who are supporting others understand that there is an element of self care that has to come first. But equally as a workplace, one of the things you can do as an employer, is make sure you equip those leaders with the skills that they need, because if they're well trained and supported, that will reduce the impact on their own wellbeing of supporting someone else's. So we give all our people leaders in Aviva mental health awareness training, to help them support their teams, and that means their confidence in dealing with those issues rises, and therefore it is less likely to have a negative impact on their own wellbeing. And similarly, we offer training around neurodiversity, anti racism, menopause, and we're adding more to those all the time. But just equipping them with the skills reduces the impact. That and self care would probably be the two strongest things that you need to advise people to look at if they're supporting others. Because you can't support that other person, if you aren't looking after yourself.
Joy Burnford: So important. And actually one of the sections of my book is about self care as well, as well as looking after other people it's about self care, because often we were the last people that we look after isn't so. So the final thing I wanted to ask you, Debbie, it's been really, really insightful. But I'd love to know if you've got one tip, one top tip for listeners in terms of managing their wellbeing and self care alongside their career, what would that one top tip be? I know, it's difficult to think of one thing!
Debbie Bullock: So I'm going to sneak two in, so the first is around self-care and making sure that you give the advice to yourself that you would give others who are, who might be in that situation. So quite often, we'd say to someone, make sure you get X, Y and Z or make sure you do this, but we don't act on that ourselves. So from a self care perspective, I would say what advice would you give to a best friend or colleague? From a workplace perspective, I think the most important thing is to have jobs with purpose, clear accountabilities, a generally sustainable workload, and colleagues that are empowered. Because if you create that, it will underpin wellbeing and all the benefits and the extra things you might offer. But if you don't have that core basis from a wellbeing perspective as an employer, anything else you do really is almost wasted investment. So focus on getting the basics of the culture right, to support the wellbeing of your people.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Debbie. It's been an absolute delight talking to you today and so many wonderful insights that will help our listeners and it's been great. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me today.
Debbie Bullock: It's been an absolute pleasure.
Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.
And remember you can get 3 months free membership of Coach Matters Network when you reference this podcast. To book, get in touch at coachmatters.co.uk/mcm.
Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.