Lessons in confidence
Our focus for Season One is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and I'm delighted to welcome Jeni Thakrar as my guest for this second episode, which is about lessons in confidence.
A big thank you to Capability Jane Recruitment for helping us bring this podcast to life. If you know a business embracing flexible working, head over to www.capabilityjane.com quoting ‘The Confidence Conversation’ and if they become a client they’ll thank you with a £100 gift voucher.
About this episode
Our focus for Season One is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and I'm delighted to welcome Jeni Thakrar as my guest for this second episode, which is about lessons in confidence. Jeni is a Talent and Inclusion Partner at Canada Life UK, and I've had the pleasure to work with her over the last year on matters relating to confidence in the workplace. Jeni recently wrote a wonderful guest blog on our website about her personal confidence journey, which we'll be chatting about today, and about the lessons she's learned during her career.
Resources
Jeni’s guest blog post - When confidence disowns you
How to be a more confident you - My Confidence Matters Eight-Step Confidence Cycle
White paper - Five tips to inspire confidence
Free webinars recorded in partnership with Capability Jane Recruitment - ‘Taking the fear out of presenting’ and ‘Top 5 tips for presenting with confidence’.
Episode transcript
Joy Burnford: Good morning Jeni, and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.
Jeni Thakrar: Hi, Joy. It's really nice to be here with you.
Joy Burnford: It's brilliant to have you. And thank you for being one of my first ever guests on my podcast, which is very exciting. So as you know, theme for this season is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and how a lack of confidence is not a crime. So we're going to be covering some of the topics that you wrote in your brilliant blog that you did for us recently. So starting off, I'd just like to ask you how confident you're feeling today?
Jeni Thakrar: At this particular moment in time, I would probably say a four.
Joy Burnford: Why is that?
Jeni Thakrar: Podcasts aren't necessarily something that I do on a daily basis. So I've not had the chance to throw myself into them and get fully up to speed. And I guess the morning that I've had online as well as with other work commitments has not been the best start.
Joy Burnford: It's always difficult, isn't it? Doing things you're not used to doing. And that whole thing about the more you do something, the more competent you get? And that is a bit of a chicken and egg. Because until you start doing more things like podcasts, and you've got to go through them you then become more competent.
Jeni Thakrar: Exactly. So yes, I'm more than happy to do loads more, and maybe by podcast 100 I'll be perfect.
Joy Burnford: Well, I tell you by podcasts three or four, you'll be brilliant. So let's talk about the particular confidence challenges you faced and how you've navigated those obstacles. And I'm sure a lot of people will resonate. Now you've got lots of personal stories that you can share, I know. But I'd love to know the sort of confidence challenges you've had in your career.
Jeni Thakrar: So I think the one that really still strikes fear in my heart, was standing up in a room full of incredibly important experienced senior people and waltzing in to deliver a presentation and just having this, I don't want to call it a young person bravado, but just having this energy or this expectation about me at the time that that I can I could do it and everything would be fine because I loved presentations. And at that point, I loved winging it. And that always seemed to work for me. And just being in that room I started to feel chills, you know, just creeping up my back, and then just realising that I knew nothing about that subject area. I knew nothing about the expectations of my audience. I knew nothing about how I wanted them to go away. You know, what messages do I want to convey? How did I want them to think and feel at the end of it? And I'd exhausted anything of any value that I could have said within five minutes. The presentation with questions was meant to be about 55 minutes.
Joy Burnford: It's interesting, isn't it when you have that horrible fear and just hearing you talking about that. It's things like exams as well, I still have dreams about turning up at exams and not knowing my stuff. And waking up in a cold sweat thinking, I don't know what I've got to say. I'm sure so many people resonate with that feeling. It's that kind of fight or flight, you just want the ground to swallow you up?
Jeni Thakrar: Oh yes, you know, I was even contemplating at that time just using the power of eyesight to break through the fire alarm case for something to happen, that would just rescue me. But, no, sadly, I had to go through that intense pain in order to learn a really important lesson.
Joy Burnford: Well, we'll talk about your lessons in a little while. Before we talk about the lessons in confidence that you shared with us in your blog, one thing I'm interested to hear your views on is that you talk openly about your British Indian identity. And obviously, people hearing you now on the podcast won't necessarily know what you look like. And I just wondered if your British Indian identity has ever affected your confidence?
Jeni Thakrar: Oh, my gosh, yes, absolutely. It is what defines me. So I still find it remarkable when people comment on me or describe me as being confident. Because I think there are many facets that make up our personalities, that people will see a select number of those facets, and then they'll base their judgments on that. For m,e public speaking, I love it, you know, but if I was in a one to one situation with someone, that is what I find incredibly difficult. So it's incredibly bizarre that my mind works that way.
Joy Burnford: So do you think this is a one to one out of interest? Or is this more like public speaking? It’s quite an interesting thought, isn't it?
Jeni Thakrar: I had coached myself to think of this as public speaking. But now that you've reminded me that this actually is a one to one, it makes me more nervous. You did ask me about my background and my cultural identity. And I really do think that played an important part in shaping me to be who I am today. So at school, University, early in my career, it was always about you are here, you are yourself, you have the same opportunities as the person next to you. Whereas at home, there was always this expectation that the moment I walked through the door, I reverted back to daughter, and although I'm an only child, and my father had an illness, all through his adult life, which meant that actually, I was forced to grow up a lot quicker than others, there was just this real huge cultural divide, wrestling between being a young Indian girl and all those expectations that were placed on me. So guests coming over, reverting to the kitchen to be with the other women to cook and serve food. But then that playing really heavily on my mind, when being in school, university, and wherever, but actually being an equal to others, irrespective of gender, of age, of levels of seniority. And I found that really difficult to navigate. And I think that's what's really affected my confidence. Because in a number of situations, it's really difficult then to work out what my position is, and not knowing that or not having that self-belief there, rather than confidence to say, right, well, this is family context, then I will be the strong female, and then having that clashing with everyone else's expectations, and that feeling so false or uncomfortable. It's that just always, then those uncomfortable periods have always built up in my mind to impact on my confidence overall.
Joy Burnford: And that's why it's so important, isn't it to see role models as young people growing up? And this is one of the reasons I want to do this podcast because I want others to hear stories like that, to actually know that you can overcome these things. Everybody has these difficulties. But actually, there are ways of overcoming these things. Thank you for sharing that. One of the things I'm interested in over the last 12 months we've all been living through, it's been a bit of a roller coaster of a year, hasn't it with the Covid pandemic and working remotely? And I'd love to know just at this point in time, what particular confidence challenges has that given you in this last 12 months?
Jeni Thakrar: I think I definitely did struggle with confidence, the pandemic, the unknown of being used to work being performed at a particular location and working closely with teams, so then suddenly to just be at home, navigating not only what your professional expectations are, but also then what was happening in the actual world, and what impact that would have on me, my family, my elderly parent, all of that I think really played on me. And it was so difficult. I spoke a moment ago about knowing what my place was, I felt that intensely during the pandemic, it affected my confidence to the point where I was really unsure and unclear. I would ask what value can I add to my team? My wider section, my wider organisation, my organisation globally, what can I add there, in this period of such uncertainty across the world. And that's not being really clear, or having a clear path and seeing how I can add that value had a tremendous effect on me. And in fact, Joy, that's where I think I first reached out to you to have that conversation with you. And just that helped me, helped calm me down, but also helped me think about, then what is it? What is that value that I can add, so that I could slowly start to rebuild my confidence again? And so from that conversation, and from the thoughts that you had, it really helped.
Joy Burnford: What were the steps you took to sort of try and get over that hurdle?
Jeni Thakrar: It was being really honest with myself about my strengths, and the value that I could add. So you know, for me, that's really important, being really clear on that, and then extending those conversations with my leaders as well, to be really clear on what I could do in the workplace. I say that in inverted commas, because we're all working virtually. So what is it that I could do? And once that was really clear for me, and those expectations from my seniors were clear, and vice versa. That really helped me take those steps forward.
Joy Burnford: Excellent. So let's think about your guest blog that you wrote for us, which is brilliant. And I've had so many people saying how wonderful the lessons were that you shared, and I really wanted to just highlight some of those things today. So the first lesson that you shared with us was that confidence can't be worn on your breastplate, like a badge of honour. And you said it was more like the tide, ebbing and flowing, you can be confident one day and you could be really lacking in confidence the next day. So tell me a bit about that lesson.
Jeni Thakrar: I mean, that came to me as a real shock. Because, again, this comes back to people being able to see various facets to your personality. So it still comes as a shock to me when people say they see me as confident, whether that's presentation delivery, or running a course or whatever it is, I still find that shocking, because you don't feel it inside. Because I think to other aspects of my experiences and how I really lack confidence there. I just think to myself, how can a person label me this when inside my heart, I'm panicking if it's a one to one conversation, or I'm panicking if it's a conversation about career development and wanting to be really clear and authentic and true, and what I want to achieve. Somehow I feel embarrassed about that. And then that connects in with that whole self-belief piece and those negative voices that you hear. So it just strikes me as really bizarre when I hear people label me as confident. I know I need to woman up and own it and say Yes, okay, I am, without then instantly sounding apologetic and saying I'm not confident at doing this or cooking for 25 people or you know, whatever else it might be.
Joy Burnford: Yes, absolutely. And I think that's so the case. You've probably heard me talking about this before, that you can be confident in one thing and not confident in another but on the same day, you know, the same hour, even and you don't even think about the things you're confident in. You know, the story I tell about my daughter making a cup of tea for the first time. You know, when she first makes a cup of tea, it's a massive thing. Whereas we make cups of tea all the time and don't think about it. And then lesson two is how ‘fake it till you make it’ doesn't work if you're not prepared. And tell me about this one presentation that we mentioned earlier actually. This one dreaded presentation that has given you many lessons in confidence.
Jeni Thakrar: I think, if you take ‘fake it till you make it’ far too literally, then it can just become a real fiendish foe for you. And so I think, absolutely there are moments when we are all probably incredibly nervous about an unfamiliar situation, but we put a brave face on it. And actually, we fare a lot better than perhaps we give ourselves credit for. But in that particular example, I had done zero preparation, just believing that if I'd gone in there with the bravado and just winging it, well, then of course, the audience would love me because why wouldn't they? Other audiences have previously loved me. So you know, what was there to lose? But failing to prepare, failing to think about your audience, failing to think about being familiar with the environments that you're in and failure to think about those messages that you want to deliver. All of that contributed on that day to that epic failure. And for me, it's now come back to prepare, if there's something that is a public speaking appointment, although I love it, and I believe I'm quite good at it, it still doesn't prevent me from saying, right, well, then, what are my key messages? Who are my audience? What might they be expecting? What curveballs might they throw at me? And then, usually in front of the bathroom mirror, I am practising to the point where I now forget that the situations in my head aren't actually playing out. And my husband might walk in and catch me talking to myself, or having a really impassioned debate with myself. And then he'll just walk out chuckling at the ridiculousness of the situation. But that aside, there's that preparation, just really helps me feel confident in the moment on the day, when, you know, when I'm faced with whatever I'm facing.
Joy Burnford: It's like musicians and actresses, and actors, you know, they don't just pitch up on stage having not learned their lines. And it's exactly the same, and sports people practising over and over and over again. And I think often people feel this in business. And often I think companies don't give their people enough time to prepare, actually, and this is something I think companies and managers within organisations need to be aware of. To give people more time to do that preparation. And then lesson three is all about not allowing anyone to define you. And I think this is when you talked about some of your horrible bosses that you've had, tell me about that. S
Jeni Thakrar: So I've had some brilliant bosses and I've learned so much from them. But it's the negative ones that I think I've learned even more from. There was one particular manager who I refer to in the blog, where I think really, he was probably the one that was the issue, and when I say issue, what I mean by that is, I don't think he paid attention in any leadership or managing people training courses that were being offered at the time. But for someone who wasn't prepared to coach or develop his people, or to be able to work collaboratively with them, if they weren't on the right pathway. Instead in that situation, I wasn't able to think rationally that way. I just felt that the way he was engaging or lack of engagement with me, the way that I perceived his behaviours, the way that I saw my team teammates distancing themselves from me, I just felt that I was the problem. And it got to the extent where I'd be crying, you know, on the way into work, crying on the way home from work, I'm sure loads of people on those trains probably thought, Gosh, what's wrong with this woman just constantly weeping. But, you know, it got to the point where I started to really question my ability as all the other roles that I fulfil outside of the office, so as mother, as daughter, daughter in law, wife, friend, all of those responsibilities. I really started to question myself. That was a particularly low point for me, because it just felt like everything I did, almost as though he could see. He could see what I was doing on a Saturday afternoon with my daughters and probably sat there tutting thinking, gosh, that's rubbish. Which is ridiculous now that I say it out loud. But it was only on the train one morning coming in to talk to another group of amazing women that I realised that I'd let this manager define me. Whereas actually, why? Why should I have given that power away? And then the more I think about it, the more I think, well, this is all the way down to how I even engage with my daughters. So my daughters are still young, not teenagers yet. And I remember when my eldest had learned to read, and I was throwing her up in the air and saying how wonderful she was, and how proud I was, and how proud her dad was, on how proud her grandparents, and everyone under the sun, how proud that we were. And then I suddenly stopped and thought, Well, if these are the lessons that I'm teaching my daughter that she can only feel a sense of accomplishment if other people are proud of her, then that's a really, really bad mistake. And it got me thinking that I needed to start reinforcing messages with my daughters, but then also myself, that actually, in the moment, after a moment, how do you yourself feel? And if you feel that you've done the best that you could have done, then that's all that matters. If somebody else comes up and says, gosh, wonderful speech, wonderful article, wonderful strategy. Wow, that's brilliant. But don't let that take away from how you feel yourself in that moment. It's a really hard lesson to teach children, especially when you've been conditioned over so many decades, yourself, to just get praise and think about your accomplishment in someone else's lens. But it's a really important lesson.
Joy Burnford: And it's a fine line, isn't it to feel kids to know that you are proud of them still? Yes, it's real balances.
Jeni Thakrar: I've got to say, actually, that I did this yesterday with my daughter. So we were talking about maths. And she did some questions. And she said, Oh, Mommy, are you proud? And I said, Well, you know, how do you feel yourself? How have you done? And she looked me dead in the eye. And she said, I think I'm really the smartest in my class. And I said, well, then that's all that matters. And she looked at me straight faced. And she said, You have taught me well, mummy. And it was lovely. It was lovely to hear that real self-belief in her.
Joy Burnford: Yes, and how wonderful that you're actually giving that thought. Because I think being a parent is so tricky at the best of times, and having the time to even reflect and think back about how can I be better? How can I be a better mother. It’s something I think about all the time, and you just you a lot of the time you're firefighting and just doing and you're getting through the day, especially when we were doing homeschooling and stuff. So you know, bravo to you for even thinking about that. That's, that's fantastic. And then the final lesson that you shared with us was about hearing that negative voice in your head and choosing not to listen to this imposter syndrome, the little inner critic that we have, you know, little mind monkey that goes on in our heads that, like everybody I've ever met, has faced at some point in time, you know, how do you deal with that inner Gremlin.
Jeni Thakrar: So I find that I can deal with that Gremlin much better when I am, mentally and physically, well nourished. So what I mean is, I'm not hungry, I'm not tired and not feeling under the weather. So when I'm alone I feel like I'm firing on all cylinders, it feels a little bit easier. And when I hear those negative voices, I'm always trying my best to counter it with positive ones. So for example, I’d very recently missed a meeting with a director and in my mind that Gremlin started. You're such an idiot, you've done this, what must this director think of you? And everything started cascading. And then I thought to myself, well, I can either choose to go down that pathway. Or actually, I can take a quick look through my diary in the last month, and look at every single appointment, every single meeting, something happening at home or at work, but that I've made and I've made on time, and I’ve done quite well in those discussions. So why not? Let me counter that negative voice with the positive. I know that's a really tiny minuscule example, but I think the more that we can all build up a positivity board or whatever it might be, to say, here are all the examples where I know I've knocked it out of the park. It then starts to quieten down that negative voice and actually then gives you the power to focus on the positive rather than listening to the negative.
Joy Burnford: That’s great advice. Finally, I'd like to ask you who inspires you? And why?
Jeni Thakrar: So I would say there are probably two other than all the bosses, everyone, all my friends who really make me stop and think. I’d probably say there are two specific women. And that's going to sound ever so cliche but first my mum, because she is quite a harsh taskmaster. But listening to her stories about marrying my father, managing with his illness, about being the main breadwinner, about being this very traditional Indian woman, dressed every single day in a sari, working in central London, managing a small company, dealing with couriers and clients, and with her broken English, being able to make herself understood, I think that's really inspiring. The other person who is incredibly inspiring to me, is my mother in law. So she's the complete opposite to my mum. So very, very kind, very relaxed. I'm not saying my mum's not, I'm sure she'd come at me with her shoes if she heard this, but my mother in law is such a relaxed woman who's always smiling and is like the ideal. I think if she were a leader, she'd be a leader, as a coach, just looking at how you can develop or looking at how you could do your best. And just being happy that that's what you offer. And that's how you engage with one another. And I think over the years that I've been married, her influence has been so strong that I think that's coming through now into my own leadership style at work as well.
Joy Burnford: Amazing. Now finally, before we go, now you've done the podcast and it's out of the way and done and dusted. How confident do you feel?
Jeni Thakrar: 15!
Joy Burnford: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Jeni, for joining me today. It's been a pleasure, as always, and I hope you have a lovely day.
Jeni Thakrar: Thank you, Joy. Thank you for inviting me.
Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do keep the conversation going and pass on a link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could leave a review and subscribe. If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics. And remember, if you know a business who could benefit from Capability Jane’s recruitment service, get in touch via their website quoting ‘The Confidence Conversation’ podcast, and if the business becomes a client they will thank you with a £100 gift voucher. Thank you, and until the next time!