Making the most of your network
Our focus for Season One is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and I'm delighted to welcome Julie Baker, Head of Enterprise, Climate Engagement and Partnerships at NatWest Group, as my guest for this third episode, which is about making the most of your network.
A big thank you to Capability Jane Recruitment for helping us bring this podcast to life. If you know a business embracing flexible working, head over to www.capabilityjane.com quoting ‘The Confidence Conversation’ and if they become a client they’ll thank you with a £100 gift voucher.
About this episode
Our focus for this Season is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and it is an absolute pleasure and honour to welcome Julie Baker as my guest today. Julie is Head of Enterprise, Climate Engagement and Partnerships at NatWest Group and we became friends after she spoke at one of our events a couple of years ago. She has been an amazing supporter and advocate of mine and I’m delighted she is joining me today to talk about ‘Making the most of your network’.
Resources
Joy Burnford’s Forbes articles with Julie: Courage, Creativity And Connection: Key Ingredients In A Confidence Cocktail and Catalyst For Change: Can The Organizational Response To The Pandemic Advance Gender Balance?
My Confidence Matters research report - Rethinking leadership through a gender lens: New ways of working resulting from Covid-19.
Episode transcript
Joy Burnford: Our focus for this Season is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and it is an absolute pleasure and honour to welcome Julie Baker as my guest today. Julie is Head of Enterprise, Climate Engagement and Partnerships at NatWest Group and we became friends after she spoke at one of our events a couple of years ago. She has been an amazing supporter and advocate of mine and I’m delighted she is joining me today to talk about ‘Making the most of your network’. Good morning, Julie. And welcome to The Confidence Conversation.
Julie Baker: Thank you Joy, and lovely to talk to you today.
Joy Burnford: Yes, it's brilliant to see you. And the theme for this season ‘Being Your Best Self’ which I think at the moment can be quite hard. For some people, especially at the moment during the pandemic, it's been a really tricky year for us all. And one of the reasons we're doing this podcast is to share some real life examples that life is not always great for people, even if people seem confident on the outside, they can be having a really tough time. So the purpose of today is really to share some of your stories. You always seem to be a very confident person. Is this true?
Julie Baker: It's probably true today, more so than it was 30 years ago, Joy. But when I was first appointed in my first leadership position, 30 years ago, I certainly lacked in confidence. I was the 14th of 14 assistant managers in the Jersey branch, the only female and I was absolutely terrified, when in meetings with my colleagues, and when addressing my team, and it was a real challenge for me. But I had a wonderful line manager at the time, he took me to one side, he really supported me. And he really made me step out my comfort zone but in bite sized sort of steps, small chunks, he actually took me on stage in front of large audiences just to do small two minutes presentations initially, just to build up that confidence. But no I haven't always been confident. It's something I've had to really work on over the years.
Joy Burnford: Yes. And how lucky you were to have a manager like that. When you think about so many people who don't have such supportive managers, and how tricky that must be. So where do you think over the years, you've got that courage and confidence from?
Julie Baker: For me, it's the role models that are out there. And I'm really fortunate today, as you know, to work for an amazing woman, Alison Rose, who was the first mainstream bank CEO. And it's incredible when you see Alison present to her leadership team, whether she's talking to the media to government, but she is just as confident when she's talking to customers and to entrepreneurs. And you do get inspiration and gain confidence from role models like those. But also, it’s the attendance at board meetings, and the attendance at those leadership positions, and not always just from your employer. I have taken the opportunity over the years to sit on external boards and also committees, and I attend all party parliamentary group meetings. I'm a big people watcher, and I just learnt from others, especially some of the other leaders from other sectors. It’s really interesting and and just see what they do.
Joy Burnford: It’s really interesting you talk about Alison Rose, because people must see people like Alison, and think she must be so confident, but I'm sure she has moments of not feeling confident. You know, it's whenever anybody's pushed out of their comfort zone. And that's the purpose of this podcast, to show that actually, people might look really confident, but it doesn't necessarily come that easily to everybody. You know, it's actually something you have to work hard at. And confidence is something that you can learn. So tell me about a time when you've maybe lacked confidence or felt really scared about speaking up in a meeting. How have you overcome that?
Julie Baker: So for me, it's probably early board meetings, quite often when you're addressing senior members of your team, possibly internally within the bank, but also external situations. And you know, quite often in those scenarios, especially in my younger days, when I was the only female, or one of one or two females around the table, it was really difficult to get your voice heard. And so you really had to learn how to navigate that board or that meeting room. And the way that I like to do that now is if I really want to get a message across, try and get on the agenda, because then you've got floor. If you can't get on the agenda, make sure you're ready to ask the question, show an interest, again, get your voice heard and it gives you the opportunity to get what you want to say across. And you know, sometimes as females, our voices are a little bit softer. So we do have to just raise our voice a little bit. And it was the Sheryl Sandberg phrase ‘lean in’. I know absolutely what that means, you do have to make yourself present. So yes, I’ve learned over the years little ways that work to get your voice heard around that table.
Joy Burnford: Yes, and I remember when we spoke for a Forbes article, you were talking about speaking to the chair ahead of a meeting.
Julie Baker: Quite often if I haven't been able to get my voice heard and you're going back to a similar meeting, I would go to the chair and say I had a challenge last time, can you make sure you bring me in and they always do. And they're actually quite welcome to those sort of conversations I've found as well.
Joy Burnford: Yes, and having that courage to actually say that and not be afraid to say that.
Julie Baker: And the really good chairs, I've got to say, and there's some excellent chairs out there, they will make sure that everyone around the table gets a voice.
Joy Burnford: I'd like to talk a little bit about networking and raising your profile. Because again, this is something that women tend to find, I personally don't mind networking, but I know a lot of people are scared of networking. Why is it so important to you to be able to network? Again, in our article, we talked about networking and how it's important to listen as well, it's not just about pitching. So I'd love to hear a little bit about your thoughts around networking. And why it's so important.
Julie Baker: Well to me, networking is a really good opportunity, one to learn, and get to know your marketplace, your community. But also the wider your network, the greater the opportunities will be to you, whether you're looking for employment, but also for business and for support. So really important that you build that network and profile, and also the right networks. And also now of course, I'm talking about profile there. But there's so many ways that you need to build that profile now within your network. And it's the external profile with the external stakeholders and partners you work with. It's your internal network with your internal colleagues and senior leadership team. But of course, it’s that third and all important network today of your digital profile, and it enhances that as well. So, you know, you do almost have sort of three personas that you need to work on.
Joy Burnford: And it's interesting bringing that sort of tech angle to it as well, because with the whole pandemic there's been so much networking online, and something I'm really interested in is the future of networking, and actually how is this going to move forwards? And I'd love to know, if you've had any experience of some great networking, online type networking over the past 12 months. Have you had any experience with that?
Julie Baker: That's really interesting, isn't it Joy, because we did all wonder what it would be like when we pivoted all of those events that we used to attend online. And what we found is, particularly with women in business, we had good attendance at the digital events. And you know, why is that? So, we've asked for feedback. They like the fact they don't have to travel, they like the fact it's okay the kids are running around in the background, you don't have to get childcare, you can put yourself on mute if you need to. And it’s sort of deemed acceptable now that you may get interrupted by a homeschooling question. But also, it's less time out in the day. And you know, we are very busy and we juggle all sorts. So just by having a 45-minute slot in your diary to be able to connect you to some likeminded people, or people that can help you gain important information, educational type material, profile your business, it's well worthwhile. So, we've seen really good attendance at the digital events. And although I know we all miss that face to face interaction and that energy we get from each other and being in the room, I do think that going forward, there will be a hybrid of both because we've got to take the learnings from the fact that we don't need to be at the office for three hours or go out on an evening, we can network and be just as successful in the shorter time.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. I think maybe that human interaction bit can come in a different way. So you're still missing that. I know I'm missing that sort of human interaction. Another thing we've spoken about before is about negotiation and the importance of negotiating. And I think, again, this is very generalistic here, but I think sometimes women don't feel that they can negotiate things like pay rises as much as men. Tell me a bit about your experience with negotiation over the years and how you've improved your technique.
Julie Baker: Well, I like to say the early years, but it was probably for about the first 25 years of my career, I really didn't negotiate when it came to salary. And strangely enough, I’d experienced roles where I'd negotiated with clients on things like fees. But when it came to my salary, I totally trusted my employer, my line manager, and I didn't for one minute perceive there to be a gender pay gap. And I felt quite probably embarrassed and disappointed when all the gender pay gap reporting came out. And it was then I did start asking questions, and I realised, yes, there was a gender pay gap. And you know, at that time, male colleagues that were probably doing similar roles to myself had been paid disproportionately more, which is, you know, what the gender pay gap is all around. It is particularly high, albeit getting better in the financial services. I've got to say that today, it’s a totally different story. Since that reporting has come out, not only do I negotiate my own pay, but I encourage in all of the presentations and everything I do, and the mentoring, that everybody negotiates on pay. But I do also tackle the HR partners and our leaders. And I'm delighted to say that at NatWest group, that all of the leaders have an objective within their annual objectives all around diversity and inclusion, and that is far more fairer today than it would have been 30 years ago. But we are on a journey and that levelling up not just with gender, but ethnic minority groups as well, is something we all need to work towards. But the good news is now it's more transparent, it’s reported on and is more positive. But yes, something I would recommend that everybody does every year, especially when you're getting promoted, don't just take it for granted that you'll get a pay rise and what they've given you is right. Do negotiate.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant. So what advice would you give to your younger self?
Julie Baker: Oh, gosh, so what advice would I give to my younger self? Well, obviously negotiate my pay. But other than that, the one thing that, especially as a mother, a working mother of two children, and mine our now grown up, but at the time, I do wish I had the confidence to delegate more. And now being a more experienced leader, I know that the art of delegation, if done right does help you develop other people and help them get that next role and progress their careers. So learning to delegate in the right way. But also, equally as important is saying ‘no’. We're nice people, we want to help everybody. But there's only so many hours in the day. So you do have to work to say ‘no’, or say ‘no, sorry, I can't do it’ but signpost or introduce to somebody else who can help. And that's just as effective.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. I suppose delegating when you're younger in your career is quite difficult sometimes, because you don't necessarily have people to delegate to. So what would your recommendation be to people who might think well, yes, I'd love to go to delegate. But who do I delegate to?
Julie Baker: You're absolutely right. And I do think that is something that does need to be put on the table because not everybody can delegate, but it doesn't always have to be to somebody within your team. It could be to somebody who's looking for a development opportunity. And certainly at the moment, we're looking at volunteers across the bank to help with mentoring programmes, and we partner with organisations like the Prince's Trust, and are always looking for mentors. And there's no way I could just do it from my team, my team's too small. So, I was delighted that the Prince's Trust launched a mentoring portal in January, and we've had 450 colleagues put their hand up across the business to volunteer and I just say, How amazing is that? I'm so proud that I work for an organisation that does that. So we don't always have to do it ourselves. We just have to be innovative and think of ways of asking for help from other people. I think the other area, which I'm far more receptive of today than I was early on in my career is the acceptance of feedback and actually seeing feedback, however it may be put across, as a gift. I think in the early days, sometimes it can be seen as a criticism, but now I just listen and actually reflect on it. And it is a gift. I think that gets easier as you get older and more experienced.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant. So, can we talk a little bit about your personal challenges when you started out? So starting your family in the Channel Islands? I know you've told me stories before about that. I'd love to hear about how you started out and how you juggled with your children and that sort of thing.
Julie Baker: Yes, reflecting back on my early years of motherhood is quite unbelievable today because yes, there I was in the Channel Islands in my sort of mid to late 20s with a young daughter. She was born prematurely. My parents were on the mainland and all of my friends on the island, because I went over there to work, were from the bank. They were colleagues, they were all at work. So it's a very lonely existence. So you really have to work at getting a support network around you. It was through one of my husband's colleagues whose wife was a nurse. And they also had a young daughter, that I managed to be befriend, if you like somebody outside of the workplace, and this nurse had to work nights, so that her and her husband could juggle the childcare. So they never saw each other. And they had a two year old daughter. So I actually spoke to her one day because she hated what she did. And the fact that her and her husband never saw each other. And I said, if I pay you your nurse's salary, would you also look after my daughter, and become a childminder which she absolutely loved and did. And that was how I managed to be quite creative and get myself back to work and knowing that my daughter was in safe hands, and a lovely two year old to play with as well. And it worked really, really well. But it was a challenge in Jersey that they didn't have lots of day nurses or nannies almost as much as 30 years ago. And as I said, my family wasn't there. So I didn't have that support network around me. It was totally different when I had my son four years later, because we were back on the mainland, I had family that would come and support in school holidays, you know, I had neighbours, we had friends, we had other school parents that you would juggle and help each other. And at that time as well I could afford some paid sort of support. But now I think it's really important to get that support network. None of us can cope without it. And that's both at home and at work. But especially at home when you've got young children. But I had to be creative. And I continued being creative as well. Because when my son and daughter were a little bit older, I don't know if I’ve told you this story, Joy, but rather than go to after school clubs, I got a farmer's daughter to come in. So she milked the cows in the morning, then come to our house, I would leave at eight o'clock she'd take the kids to school, she would pick them up from school, and then when I got home, she'll go back and milk the cows. So it just worked really well. But the kids loved being sick, because if they had sick days, they could go and spend the day in the farmhouse and they got to see calves being born. And also spend school holidays on the farm as well. So it worked really well.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant, sticking with the Channel Islands, I think you told me once about your boss, I think you may be referred to your boss earlier about some of the key things about sponsorship and being tapped on the shoulder. And I'd love to hear your thoughts about the importance of sponsorship.
Julie Baker: It is so important. And I was very lucky that early on in my career. First of all, he, I suppose went against what would normally happen when you appoint the next leader in a branch. So when I was appointed as that 14th assistant manager, the expectation was that other males that had been in the branch longer would have got that position. And he was okay to actually go against the norm because he just, I suppose instilled the confidence in me and knew that I could do the role, right. And he actually wanted, he was before his time, he saw the value of having somebody different around the table rather than somebody else who was the same as everybody else. So he was before his time. And I'm not sure whether I shared with you before Joy. But I did have the opportunity to work with him again, about five years later, when I returned to the mainland. And at that time, I'd gone back to work after having my second child, I was the administration manager, he came in as a senior manager, very much his last role as he was about to retire. And he said, Julie, I'm going to get you looking after some commercial customers. He said you're too good to be an admin and so he took me under his wing. And we used to go out and see all the commercial clients, which was hard work because it was extra work for me, because I was working full time juggling two young children at that stage. But if he hadn't done that, and given me the confidence and the skills to look after commercial clients, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. So it's just incredible, really. I do owe him a lot. He would always push me outside my comfort zone. He would also, you know, set me tasks there to support, but certainly challenges. I just wish he was around today to see what I'm doing now. Unfortunately, he didn't live long to retirement.
Joy Burnford: That's amazing. So a message to all those managers out there, think about who you can sponsor.
Julie Baker: Absolutely.
Joy Burnford: So thinking a little bit about the future and what we can learn from the last 12 months from the COVID pandemic, I'd love to know how working remotely has impacted you personally and for the business. In what sense has that had an impact on you?
Julie Baker: Yes, it's interesting as that until COVID hit, I didn't actually like working from home. So although I had local days, I used to choose to go into the local Winchester office, which was the branch, and I had a lovely time and could walk down the hill. And it was all wonderful. Then of course COVID hit. And it was the 11th of March 2020 was my last day in London and by the 23rd of March, Alison Rose came out with the message that everybody would be working from home. So that was almost 60,000 people working from home. And, you know, we adapted really well. And really quickly. We did have to pivot a lot of what we do into digital, we've already talked about the networking events. But of course, instead of face to face meetings, we're doing zoom meetings. And in time, we've all adapted and actually, you know, sometimes we've probably gone too far, we've become like machines, and you get that zoom fatigue, because you've been on zoom for too long, and you haven't had the breaks in between. But, for me personally, what I've enjoyed about it is I've seen more of my neighbours and my local community and got to know walks that I didn't know, in the last year than I did in the previous four years that I’d lived here. I took three golf lessons before COVID. And I've had time to actually take more lessons and practice and I wouldn't have had time to do that if COVID hadn't happened. And the courses haven't always been open. But it's one of those things that you need time for. And I didn't have that time, business wise. I miss not seeing my team because I do get energy from others. But the good news is, we are still able to do a lot of what we did before via zoom and remotely. And you know, some of that will continue.
Joy Burnford: And your point about being able to go to a golf course. How important that whole health and wellbeing aspect is actually and hopefully, a silver lining of the pandemic is that people might have done more to look after themselves. So do you think COVID has an opportunity for change, to set the future for working women? I know we've talked a lot in the past about, women potentially prefer to have a bit more flexible working with children at home. Potentially something I'm worried about is the going back to the office and that potential two track system, so that you might get men automatically returned to the office and women potentially wanting to still do some flexible work. And we revert back to the old way of working? How do you see that working? I’d be interested to know what NatWest group are doing, and what your thoughts are about returning to work, and making sure that you do get that balance of home working versus the flexibility, and that whole hybrid model?
Julie Baker: Now, that's a really, really good question. That's something we're all thinking about. And the world is changing, and we’re changing with it, not just because of COVID-19. So even before the pandemic, we were looking at new ways of working not just to make it more flexible for females, but obviously for all of our employees and looking at giving more options with where, when and how we worked. So lockdown happened and the majority of our staff have been working from home, as we discussed since March last year. So we have more recently set up ‘a ways of working’ team. And this is actually headed up by our HR transformation team. And it will complement our existing property transformation strategy as well. And you will have seen in the papers, a lot of the financial institutions are downsizing on their property footprints. So through new ways of working will help to build probably more resilience by supporting all aspects of life, and contribute to colleagues wellbeing not just their working career. But importantly, we need to invest in skills for the future, opportunities for colleagues in this new world. So we will need to reskill and grow. And we've all learned new digital skills everywhere in the last 12 months. And we also need to think about what will job mobility look like in the future? Knowledge sharing and on the job learning, particularly the new recruits, you know, how are we going to make this journey, for that next generation. So it's not just about emerging from the pandemic, it's more about how we want to work in the future. And the experience for all our colleagues either at home or in the office. And you've mentioned already, wellbeing, that’s got to be at the heart of it. And so the office will still be there. Some people will need to be based in offices as well, you know, we do need people in our branches, and there may be some specialist roles that need to be in the office 100% of the time, but for a lot of the other roles, and my team is included in this it may be two days a week in an office, or it may even be, I don't know, one week, a month, but it will be a hybrid and that's what we're looking at now with this ways of working. So you know, we're modelling, we're designing, we're looking at remote working, and, if it’s right, we'd bring people together to collaborate and connect in the office and maybe use offices in different ways to what we did do previously and they will probably look different because of that.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant, thank you. And so before we finish, I'd love to just ask you, who inspires you? And why?
Julie Baker: Oh, gosh, who inspires me? Well, we've already talked about Alison Rose, because obviously, she was the first ever female CEO of a mainstream bank. But not just because she was a female CEO of a mainstream bank, but because she had that unique, if you like, commitment of coming out as a purpose led organisation, you know, becoming a more sustainable business that delivers better outcomes for customers, colleagues, shareholders and communities. No other bank has done that. It's always been about money. So absolutely. Alison inspires me every single day of the week. But also, and I don't know whether you're watching at the moment, Joy, the programmes with Greta Thunberg, how inspiring is she? She's from that next generation, or even the generation after that, but she's brave enough to challenge world leaders at that young age to take immediate action to save the planet. And I just think, you know, when we talk about confidence, there's probably not a better role model at the moment than her because she knows she is challenging world leaders.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. You can see that inner strength in her as well.
Julie Baker: Yes, and she inspires me, but actually, she'll be inspiring every age, but in particular, the school children, the teenagers, the youngsters as well.
Joy Burnford: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Julie. It's been a delight, and a pleasure as always to have you on the podcast. And I look forward to talking to you again soon.
Julie Baker: Thank you, Joy, I really enjoyed it, as always.
Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do keep the conversation going and pass on a link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could leave a review and subscribe. If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics. And remember, if you know a business who could benefit from Capability Jane’s recruitment service, get in touch via their website quoting ‘The Confidence Conversation’ podcast, and if the business becomes a client they will thank you with a £100 gift voucher. Thank you, and until the next time!