Gender, bias and confidence at work
Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting to the Top’ and I’m delighted to introduce this special joint episode with Cityparents’ Anna Richards for International Women’s Day 2022. Today, we’ll be talking about progress in gender balance in the workplace, the main issues for women at work today and how corporates and leaders can help to address them.
A big thank you to Gail Morgan Style for sponsoring this season. Focusing on mindset, colours, style and wardrobe management, Gail has inspired me and thousands of other women to increase their visibility, impact, and influence by reducing wardrobe overwhelm and confusion. She truly is a master of her craft and completely understands how the ‘right’ clothes can immediately increase your confidence and credibility. Gail Morgan Style is offering our listeners 15% off all colour analysis sessions, and any of her other styling services, when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.
About this episode
Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting To The Top’ and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips to inspire you in your career.
I’m delighted to introduce this special joint episode with Cityparents’ Anna Richards for International Women’s Day 2022. Today, we’ll be talking about progress in gender balance in the workplace, the main issues for women at work today and how corporates and leaders can help to address them.
Resources
Gail Morgan Style: Gail Morgan Style is offering our listeners 15% off all colour analysis sessions, and any of her other styling services, when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.
Cityparents: Cityparents is an award-winning organisation offering tailored, expert-led resources to support parents and professionals in their work and home lives. To find out more click here.
Fair Play by Eve Rodsky: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fair-Play-Win-Win-solution-Women/dp/152940018X
Eternity Leave by Simon Kettlewell: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ETERNITY-LEAVE-Touching-poignant-BOOKCASE-ebook/dp/B08WCT63J5
Episode transcript
Anna Richards: A very warm welcome to today's podcast. I'm Anna Richards from Cityparents, the team that brings working parents support and expertise to help you to balance your home and work lives. And I'm thrilled to be joined today by Joy Burnford. Joy is the founder and director of My Confidence Matters. She has bags of experience as a leader in the corporate world. And she's a veritable trailblazer in gender equality. Today's episode is a joint one featuring both on Cityparents Talk as well as Joy's podcast, The Confidence Conversation, and we hope you enjoy it. In celebration of this year's International Women's Day where the theme is around breaking the bias, we're going to be discussing gender equality, bias and confidence in the workplace. Joy is currently writing a book called ‘Don't Fix Women: The practical path to gender equality at work’. So Joy's expertise. And current thinking is absolutely central to this theme. And I'm really delighted to have the time to talk to her today. Joy, thank you so much for joining me. Let's start with some thoughts from you really around the current state of play in terms of gender equality at work, and you've got lots of experience in different roles over the last 20 years. When you look back, do you feel positive and heartened? Or do you feel frustrated or disappointed by lack of progress?
Joy Burnford: I think it's a really good question. And thank you for having me on the podcast. I think there's definitely been some progress. But I don't think there's been enough progress. We've seen the gender pay gap reporting that's been very much present in the last few years apart from obviously, during the pandemic, when it stopped, that’s started, which has been great. And it's giving people that, you know, being conscious about these things, I think there's still a long way to go and taking action as part of that is still somewhere that organisations need to go. I think there's been progress on things like the FTSE Women Leaders Review which used to be called the Hampton Alexander review, where they set a target of having 33% women on boards, which they've achieved, I think they in the next phase are looking at how to bring more executive leadership positions with women rather than non exec positions. So there's been some really great progress and strides and I think people are having the conversation, which is brilliant. I don't think it's moving fast enough. The World Economic Forum talks about still being 268 years away from economic pay gap parity, which has actually gone up since 2018. It was 202 years, it's now gone up to 268 years, which is it's not in my lifetime. But you know, in our lifetime, it's not in our children's lifetime. It's not in our great, great, great great grandchildren's lifetime, which is really sad I think that's still what the prospect is. But I'm very heartened that organisations are now starting to look at things like shared parental leave, carers leave, putting a lot more focus on things like health and well being, and things like menopause support for women. And that's sort of thing, which I think is fantastic. And it's sort of goes a long way towards being better at gender equality. But as I was chatting to a CEO just for Christmas for my book, and he was saying that we just need to pick up the pace a bit more around gender equality, and not just say, Oh, it's going to take time and accept that we need to make some small changes to make big, big change happen.
Anna Richards: Absolutely. And then the last couple of years, we've obviously had a pandemic, which is certainly accelerated and acceptance of remote working, where we'll end up in this new hybrid world, I'm not sure. To what extent has that helped the gender debate Joy, do you think or have there been any ways that impact it might have hindered it?
Joy Burnford: And I think any parents who are listening, perhaps during the lockdown, and middle of the pandemic, I think it probably hindered quite a lot when you're trying to work and homeschooling and all of that. And I think you may have seen the research that McKinsey did. So you know, one in three women are considering downshifting or leaving their careers, which is really sad. I think a lot of that came on the back of the pandemic, and just people feeling they couldn't cope with the burden that was on their heads. But I think where it has helped is really it's given the pandemic, it's given partners, husbands, wives insights into parenting and career juggle, you know, real insight into what goes on in those people who do have caring responsibilities. So I think that's been really, really helpful. And I think the fact there was a mandate to work from home, suddenly, overnight, organisations had to make change happen for so many years, people said, we can't do working from home, we can't do flexible working, because it's too difficult, you know, we haven't got the IT systems in place to support that. And then suddenly, overnight, remote working became the norm. So that's really, really positive. And I think the one thing we need to just be careful of is we don't revert back and have a sort of, two tier workforce in the future. I think a lot of men and women have benefited from working remotely, working flexibly, which is great. And I think we just need to make sure that organisations don't say everybody's coming back to work or that women stay at home, the ones that stay looking after the children and being in that stereotypical world of being home, and that the men go back into the office because then we've got that two tier workforce again, so I think as long as we keep mindful of that, and organisations can track who's working from home who's not and make changes as necessary.
Anna Richards: Interesting, isn't it? I remember when we first talking about hybrid working and the idea of some people being in the office and some people being remote and you know, having worked for a global organisation that's completely normal in lots of ways. It's quite normal. We're not supposed to be in a conference call and people from Hong Kong or America dialling in and the rest of us all in the meeting room in London's, lots of that is part of the way that lots of corporations work. And in some ways, it feels very new.
Joy Burnford: One of the things I'd recommend to organisations with their hybrid working, it's making sure that everybody who's in the room, the physical room has a small screen with their face on it so that the people are working from home also see a small screen with their face on it so that it's not them and us and actually having that screen for each individual I think really helps as well.
Anna Richards: That's a nice idea. A bit of a leveller, yes, interesting. So when you're speaking to your clients, or even people that you're interviewing for your book, presumably Joy, what are the main issues that you think are still very present today? And I suppose, putting a parent's lens on that as well, I've always felt so much discussion about gender. And one of the big elephants in the room is often around retaining particularly female talent is the difficulty is often when they become parents and personal lives become that much more demanding and pressured as well. What are the big issues that you hear about on a on a daily basis?
Joy Burnford: So yes, talking about my book, there are some challenges in particular for women. And actually, it's not just for women. So the books being written with women in mind, because it's about gender equality. But a lot of the things I talk about in the book, do also impact men as well who are potentially taking on parenting responsibilities. So I think there are three main challenges for women in the workplace and in the world at large, really. So the first one is hormonal challenges, which I call the four M's, which is monthlies, miscarriage, maternity, and menopause. So these are four things that are obviously things like miscarriage can affect men as well, but they are predominantly female issues that have a big impact or can have a big impact on women in the workplace. And a lot of organisations are now picking up things like menopause support, and actually, we're running something called Hormone Hubs to support women in this area. So the hormonal challenges are a big thing. The secondary area is caring responsibilities. And this is as we've touched on childcare. It's also eldercare could be a combination of the two. And it's also self care and having that time to look after yourself. Because often, as busy mums, wives, we often put our own self care to the, to the back, and we don't really think about our own health and well being. So it's really important to think that we do that. And then the third area is about confidence. And I know that both men and women can suffer from a lack of confidence. We've done research in the past, which shows that women do lack confidence more than men and suffer from imposter syndrome. And I think often I think that men lack the confidence to say they lack confidence. So it is something that we see a lot of women do struggle with. And the reason I set up the business, My Confidence Matters was to shed a light on this and to show that actually, confidence is a skill that can be learned. And it's something I've gone through, I have confidence gremlins all the time, you know, sharing with you earlier that actually I, I don't like doing things like this, I hate being interviewed. And I have to kind of push myself out of my comfort zone to do it. And I think in the past, I probably would just not have done it, I would have said no, I can't possibly do a podcast interview. Whereas now I say, Yes, I push myself. And like writing my book, I was thinking, I want to do this. So I'm just going do it and tell people I'm going to do it. And then it's been really hard work. But at the end, you know, I've pushed myself and it's how you how you develop and how you stretch and how you get better at things. And I do talk for organisations called The Confidence Cycle, which goes through all of these things about how you stretch and identify your strengths and consider your mind monkeys and how overcome those things and celebrating achievements. It's a big thing confidence.
Anna Richards: Absolutely. And it's very present issue, as I'm sure every day in the workplace. Joy, can you start to nail some of the solutions to some of this from a workplace point of view? What do you think that employers and leaders and and managers should be doing to tackle some of these issues?
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And I think that the main point is, there's two things really, there's inclusive leadership, having leaders at the top of organisations who as I say, in my book, they have to have DNI in their DNA, and really feeling passionate and being inclusive from the very top and then that cascades down the organisation. And so if you start with an organisation with a leader at the top, and as we know, a lot of leaders are men. So it's getting men really in the right zone feeling passionate about gender equality. So it's about having inclusive leaders. It's also about having the right culture in the organisation. And in the book, I talk about three different cultural frameworks that I believe you need. And with these, I believe that gender equality will come. So the first one is flexibility and we've talked a bit about flexibility. And that really is not necessarily remote working. But it can be. It's about having the work based on output rather than input and trusting your employees to be able to work wherever, whenever, however they want to work to get the job done as long as it's not in any way compromising the organisation. And that's about changing the way that you reward your staff as well. But giving that flexibility so that it doesn't have to be a nine to five job in an office, for example, we are moving away from that, but I think it's just making sure presenteeism or presenteeism kind of goes away completely. So that's the first one. The second one is about allyship. And this can be men or women being allies, to other women, or those in a minority, and making sure that this is the culture that you're creating is one of allies and there people are supporting each other. In the book, I talk about a framework called SPACES, which we won't go into detail now. But there's information on our website about that as ways that people can actually, if they're not sure how to become an ally, this is quick and easy steps that you can take. And I think the main thing really is about curiosity and asking how you can be more supportive. That's allyship. And then the third one is around coaching and support and having a coaching culture rather than as more traditional command and control culture. I think organisations are moving on quite a lot from that nowadays, having coaching conversations on a daily basis. It's not about just having external coaches, because not everybody can afford to have external coaches, but it's about encouraging line managers to have those coaching conversations with their people.
Anna Richards: Great advice. Thank you. And what about when we think about individuals, particularly women, for the moment, perhaps somebody is, is feeling that they're being held back either by themselves, perhaps it's their own lack of self confidence, or imposter syndrome you've mentioned or they might feel that they actually they're operating in a working environment that's holding them back on some of these biases? What advice would you give to them?
Joy Burnford: It's really interesting question, because I had a call the other day from a friend of mine, who I haven't spoken to for about five years. And she rang me and said, she said, I was just trying to think, who to ask for some advice from because I've got a three year old daughter, and a dream job of hers has come up with a senior role in an organisation. And she said, I just don't know whether to go for it, because I've got my three year old. And I'm not sure whether I've got the ability to go for it. I mean, if she didn't have a child, she'd be going for it. And, and how's that? Gosh, this is just so spot on with my book. Because I think, you know, this is what so many people are going through and thinking, can I do it? And so my response to her was, be brave, and ask for what you need, at home and at work. So taking each of those in turn. So at home, for example, asking for what you need. And getting help with things like the mental load, I'm sure you've heard about mental load, and having so many things going on in your mind and how you manage all of that. So helping the mental load. So this could be asking a partner, husband, about taking on some end to end tasks. So there's a great book by Eve Rodsky called Fair Play, and she talks about taking on whole tasks. So for example, my husband deals with all the football in the house. So my daughter plays football, he manages everything from the kit she needs to going to rehearsals, not rehearsals, what do you call them practices. See, I don't get involved in the football conversations. But actually taking on all of that. So I don't have to even consider the WhatsApp group, you know, messages are pinging up on or anything like that. So it's, it's taking into tasks, I'm not always thinking about every single thing that is needed in the house. And so that's the mental load. And then also thinking about the physical load, and outsourcing what you can afford to or what you don't need to do yourself. So I'm a big believer in you can't do everything, it's impossible to do everything. So if you really work out what it is you need to do, and you want to do, and then get help with other things, if you can, whether that's paying for help, or whether that's asking friends and family, you know, for me, I have a wonderful cleaner home help. And she helps me with things like the washing and you know, the cleaning and things that actually I don't particularly want to be doing or spend my time doing, I'd rather be spending my time with the kids and doing the work. So it's being brave and asking for what you need is critical, so that's at home. And then likewise at work. It's about asking things like flexibility, not just assuming because it's not offered that you can't ask for it. It's about things like you might want to ask about job sharing, or you know, flexible working, or it might be asking for coach or it might be talking about boundaries and non negotiables about what you really need. As part of your working life. We talk a bit about things called buffering and focus time so you don't go from meeting to meeting without time to sort of break and have a bit of downtime. So lots of things you can ask for but really making clear what you need to help you do your job but I would definitely say to my friend I said go for it. Just go for it. You can't stop your career in life because you've got a child you know, they're there to enhance your life not to, I know I'm a better mother for working so you know, if you're like me and you get a lot of energy and passionate enjoyment from work, then you know, don't get it give it up because you're, now a parent.
Anna Richards: Oh, I hope she goes for it.
Joy Burnford: I do too!
Anna Richards: Yes, especially well with your brilliant advice. Really interesting though, because I think we're all quite good at doing sort of reviews and audits and assessments when it comes to work. But actually, we need to place that lens over our lives sometimes and actually assess the tasks and what needs to be done when and who can do what and, and as you say, delegate, and I really like that end-to-end point because it's one thing, getting things ready for football that day. But actually, it's everything else that go with it, isn't it. So I really like that. And also you make a very valid point about dialogue with your employer ask, you don’t know if you if you can have a flexible working arrangement until you ask for it. I always remember in a past life having a clash, which was a meeting with the managing partner of the firm I worked for, and I was pretty junior at the time, clashed with, I think it was sort of an end of term performance or something for my daughter. And they just both were so important to me. And I remember being brave enough to ask my manager, you know about this, and she moved the meeting, which was his diary, it was almost impossible. And I'll never forget it. And I'm obviously telling you now it, it meant a lot to me. And that gives you a lot of, you know, good, good feeling. And you probably end up going the extra mile and another in another way. So I think it works both ways. And so we've touched on the role that men play in all of this. I'm conscious that back in the day, you know, men in very senior positions often had a wife at home would take on the brunt of the home life. Of course, that's the traditional role. And actually, they could just focus on work. And so their roles had to shift a little bit, a lot, I suppose. And you've mentioned how the pandemic has actually been helpful in, in this regard. Have you spoken to many men for your book? What do they have to say?
Joy Burnford: I have. And I was really keen to do that. I spoke, I was very honoured to speak to a lot of CEOs of major, you know, blue chip companies actually before Christmas, which was really interesting. And I remember one conversation with the COO of Coutts, actually, and he was talking about inclusion in the home. And he finds that he's trying often to be more hands on, dad, and they've agreed between them, he and his wife want to do more, but often, he feels excluded at places like the school gates. And I think it was him that mentioned, that I think his wife said it was my kitchen or something which talking about #breakthebias, it's actually the stereotypes and checking what you're saying, when you're saying it is really important to making sure that men feel included in that, you know, at the school gates, not like oh, well, you're having a day off today. And you're babysitting the children, you know, and just checking that you're being inclusive as a female, as well. It's really important. And I loved listening to your podcast with Simon Kettlewell, the author of Eternity Leave, I thought it was so fascinating, really, really fascinating. And when I was thinking about this podcast, and I was thinking, it's so important to be an ally at work, but also at home for men to be allies at home and at work. And so, you know, how do you do that if you're a man listening to this? I think the first thing is about being curious, and listening. And that comes back to the kind of coaching philosophy as well, you know, asking questions and listening. And you know, home is asking, how can I lighten the load for you? And at work, it might be, you know, what changes can we make to support you with your caring responsibilities? Or it might be, is there anything we can do to support your menopause symptoms, or actually not being afraid to ask and being brave again, you know, for men, as well as for women. And often men say, I don't know what to do. And I don't know what to say. And I'm not gonna say anything, because I'm scared about saying the wrong thing. And I actually had a conversation recently with a transgender woman, and I was quite scared about conversation, and I opened up and I said, I've never knowingly had a conversation so open about being transgender. And I was a bit worried. And I thought this must be how a lot of men feel about having a conversation with women, as well. And I think the key is just be curious, ask questions, and be honest that you don't know the answers and often people want to help so. So that's the first one. I think, secondly, it's about giving encouragement, I don't know whether you're like me, but you like I like feedback. And like to know, I'm doing a good job. And I've had bosses in the past, you've just not given me any feedback. And I'm like, Oh, am I doing a good job and even though I am doing a good job, I like to hear it. So I think you know, give, give feedback and give encouragement that often at home you know, motherhood and being a wife is a thankless task. So you know, say thank you, as well to those who around you who do a great job. I know being a mother is the most difficult job I've ever had to do. Much more than a corporate job. And I think finally setting an example and being more present at home with your kids. It's about showing your friends, male friends, perhaps and not hiding away from the fact you're doing more around the house or more supporting in the home in breaking the bias at work. And speaking up if you don't think somebody is being treated fairly, for example, and as I said earlier, women need to also set an example by being inclusive in the home as well.
Anna Richards: Thank you Joy. I think that's such a fantastic, actually very simple advice that we can apply to lots of things I've really enjoyed chatting to you today. Thank you so much for talking about this rather nutty topic. It's been fantastic and thank you to our listeners as well. If you’re listening as a follower of Cityparents Talk, do check out and subscribe to The Confidence Conversation to hear more from Joy and the brilliant experts that she interviews. And likewise if you're a regular follower of Joy's do look us up, Cityparents Talk, all available on any major podcast platform or link from My Confidence Matters or Cityparents websites. Thank you and we look forward to welcoming you to our podcast again soon.
Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.
And remember you can get 15% off all virtual and in-person colour analysis sessions and other services at Gail Morgan Style when you reference this podcast. To book, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.
Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.