How job sharing can boost your career

Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting to the Top’ and I’m delighted to welcome Alix Ainsley and Charlotte Cherry as my guests. Today, we’ll be talking about how job sharing can boost your career.

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About this episode

Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting To The Top’ and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips to inspire you in your career. 

I’m delighted to welcome Charlotte Cherry and Alix Ainsley as my guests today. Charlotte and Alix job-share the role of Director of Talent & Learning at the John Lewis Partnership and are fantastic role models for senior job sharing. Today we’ll be talking about something that really should be more prevalent in the workplace – ‘How job sharing can boost your career’.

Resources

Gail Morgan Style: Gail Morgan Style is offering our listeners 15% off all colour analysis sessions, and any of her other styling services, when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.

People Management article with Alix & Charlotte: How job sharing can boost your career. This article explains how a job sharing arrangement can offer many rewards – both across home and working life.

Episode transcript

Joy Burnford: Hello Alix and Charlotte, and welcome to The Confidence Conversation. It's lovely to have you. And as I was saying it's the first time I've had two guests on my show at the same time so this is going to be really interesting to see how this goes. As you both know, I'm a massive advocate of job sharing as a tool, in particular, for gender equality in my world. I think it's a really, really fantastic tool for both men and women. And you've been so kind to support me with my book that I'm writing, and also we did an article together for People Management recently on this very topic. So I'm absolutely delighted to have you both with me today. So Alix, let’s start with you. So you've been working together as a job share for a long time. Tell me a little bit about your backgrounds and how the original job share came about? What were the reasons that you wanted to go into a job share at the time?

Alix Ainsley: Yeah, of course. So Charlotte and I have been sharing for Charlotte, I think it's nine years now, isn't it? And so yeah, a long time, as you say. At the time that we started the job-share, Charlotte was actually returning from her second maternity leave. So I had been covering her role while she was out having her son. And it was sort of a combination of me realising through that period that I probably wanted greater balance in my life, and didn't want to continue working full time combined with her thinking about her options to return and sort of changes actually, within her family life that meant she was also seeking sort of better balance. And I guess what was neat for Charlotte and I was we've been colleagues for a couple of years, we've known each other a bit longer than that, because we've been sort of circling each other within a broader HR organisation at GE Capital. And both of us have quite similar career backgrounds. So I guess our sort of Happy Places HR business partnering, so we consider ourselves sort of HR partners at heart. But we both have a sort of combined love of the talent and learning agenda and had had the opportunity to step in and out of that sort of specialism I guess within the GE organisation, and so neatly had quite a similar background. We both worked for GE for quite a long time. So I guess we had quite a lot of credibility and reputation in the bank, as it were. Nevertheless, it took some support from our boss at the time to sort of help navigate into the job share, because I guess nine years ago, even though that sort of doesn't feel like a long time ago, it was, I'm not sure we've made huge progress in terms of flexibility in that time either, but the climate then was very different. You know, it wasn't an obvious thing for us to do. It was sort of something that wasn't naturally supported at that time. And so we were very lucky we had a kind of creative boss who helped us into that position. And I guess it was also quite helpful, we started job sharing a role that probably we’d both outgrown and that probably sounds a bit counterintuitive, but it enabled us to work out how we made the job share successful without the pressure of the job performance as it were, we knew the job and had both worked it so we were able to really focus on the job share. So we had a fantastic first year figuring out how to make it work.

Joy Burnford: Fantastic. And Charlotte since then, you've progressed, you know, both of your careers at the same time together with different organisations, which I think is really amazing that you've managed to move together. I think that was one of the things that really struck me when we first spoke, you know, can you explain where you are now and how you've reached where you are today, it would be really helpful.

Charlotte Cherry: Yeah. So today we find ourselves, which I think we both feel in an incredibly privileged position to be part of John Lewis Partnership, and privileged both, given the organisation itself, which is just phenomenal, but also privileged to lead the team that we do. I think you made the point, which is, you know, we've chartered a few organisations together, since we started that job share nine years ago. And, you know, I think it's fair to say that we've sort of grown together, learned a huge amount over that time, and really honed the sort of the partnership that we sort of find ourselves in today. I think one of the benefits of job sharing is that you do continually challenge each other and ourselves both in terms of the role that we're doing, but also the organisations that we're working for. So what we've found over the last nine years is, as we have reached points in our time in those organisations where we've either felt like the role wasn't quite what we wanted, or we felt like we've done enough in that organisation, or there was something about the organisation that felt sort of agitating us to move on. We've thankfully, both reached those same conclusions, which definitely talks to very kind of similar mindset values, and kind of beliefs in what we want to work. And so we've reached similar decision points throughout those nine years. And so we've been able to make those moves together, which, as you say, is reasonably unique. Probably because we've been doing or thinking about those things together, we've really pushed one another. And, you know, there's been times where we've said, we'll just hold hands, and we'll do it anyway, you know, and we've probably been more courageous as a result of doing it together than I know, I would have done if I'd been doing it on my own. So we have pushed each other to make those moves, which, as you say, is sort of seen us through a couple of organisations. And, you know, Alix made the point, when we started the job share in GE, we were both reasonably known entities and established in the organisation. And so what's been really fascinating is being able to take that and really build that from scratch in organisations where culturally we were kind of new and establishing but also in terms of our contribution and our value to those organisations. So it really has sort of tested building new relationships, establishing stakeholders and navigating the organisation when it's when it's all new. So yeah, it's been hugely rewarding. It's been a roller coaster, but incredible.

Joy Burnford: And I think that's amazing. I think that's what struck me last time when we spoke was that you're sort of helping each other out and actually pushing each other on because often when you're in a senior role, you know, male or female, but I know women find it very difficult sometimes to have the confidence to push forward to sort of promotions. And perhaps Alix tell me a little bit about, you know, how you've helped each other reach the top and achieve that success.

Alix Ainsley: Yeah, and I guess, it's definitely been something we've reflected on more recently, lots of people asked us in the early days, or when we were certainly pushing for a bigger job within the context of the job share. The kind of response was, you won't progress into a more senior job while your job sharing, you know, when you're when you want to take your career seriously, again, let us know and that will involve you going full time. And it was sort of that, that spurred us on really to say actually, we feel like the job share works really well commercially for the organisation. It certainly creates the right boundaries for us balance. And so let's test the theory that we can't progress. And it's that sort of steely determination that two people give each other. You sort of galvanise as a team, really, and I absolutely know and as Charlotte said, it's that kind of unity, that almost gets forged in adversity, that kick started us on we will prove something different to be true. And I guess we've sort of continued that thread. And as Charlotte said, we've looked at roles together that I know I wouldn't have even considered individually, but I've always thought well, okay, perhaps collectively and I'm pretty, I'm far more confident in Charlotte than I am in myself. So worst case scenario here she flourishes and I fail, let’s, you know what's not to try, you just do get a bit bolder when there's, when there's two of you, it's the joy of the team, I guess. And we've also been able to reach that collective coverage. So when you are facing a really super big challenge, you've got two brains on it, you've got two different styles, which are tackling the issue. So whether that is navigating really complicated stakeholder landscape, you know, which one is the right one to go into battle on something or to head something, you know, which one's getting to influence a particular person in the right way or get to an outcome? And so I guess you can, you've got more tools in your armoury to approach the more challenging jobs. And, you know, HR is a profession that has been so disrupted in the time that Charlotte and I have been running our job share and job shares fit that disruption really, really well. It's sort of had a moment in time, I think, for us to explore it as well. So yeah, a number of reasons why I think we have pushed each other on and helped each other to accelerate the career and sort of people saying to us now, do you feel like your job share has held you back? I'm like, it's the complete opposite. It's been the accelerator for us.

Joy Burnford: Yeah. Brilliant. And one of the questions I was going to ask you, Alix, is what drives and motivates you to continue to the top? So, and Charlotte, you know, feel free to chip in here. Is there anything else you've obviously said that each other is a really good motivator? But is there anything else that's that you haven't mentioned, that's a great driver, and motivated to continue sort of striving for the top.

Charlotte Cherry: I think sort of less so about motivating, striving for the top, but more just sort of the point around the motivation to kind of be successful in the context of the job share, you know, there was something wonderfully unique about the partnership. And I think Alix, you might have just said a moment ago, sort of that it's a mini team. And so in many ways, when we talk to people about you know how job sharing kind of works, it's effectively the same as having a mini team, but there is, whereas in teams, there are different people who've got different responsibilities and accountabilities, what's sort of unique and really powerful in uniting a job share pair is that you have, you’re invested in exactly the same success and outcomes that you're wanting to try and achieve. But it is effectively a mini team. And so within any team, you want to support your colleagues, you want to not let people down. And so that definitely drives us to be successful is that we want to not only deliver and be effective for the organisation of the people that we're working for, but there's something then additional around the other person that you're doing this for. And so that definitely has moments where it can potentially derail, and maybe we'll come on to that, or it can be kind of the downside, but it definitely kind of powers you on when you're doing it with and for somebody else.

Alix Ainsley: I guess what I would also throw in, I'm really thoughtful about when we started, we didn't realise we were going to be trailblazing, and that sounds quite a sort of pompous word, but, you know, so many people have said to us, gosh, you know, that that's really encouraged me to think about doing this differently, or accommodating this within my team, and you start to realise you've got this responsibility, and you start to take that really seriously. And so as we push on, you have a really big, I guess, a sense of obligation to be role modelling the art of the possible, that definitely pushes me on now. And as I sort of enter a different phase of my family life with kids that are older, leaving the nest, starting university, etc, I sort of find myself in a different scenario of wanting flexibility, more about health, and wellbeing, more about sort of developing myself in a different way now I've got more space in my life. And also I have sort of additional sort of caring responsibilities, which make me really thoughtful about keeping going in the way that I am with Charlotte is hugely important.

Charlotte Cherry: I remember somebody saying to us in the early days, so a bit sort of the when you're ready to take your career seriously. And when will this sort of thing that's called job sharing when we have sort of scratched over with it, and I mean, in the early days, there's a really practical, when your kids are young, which was nine years ago, I was returning from maternity leave, they're very young, you know, the job share provides a really practical break and balance that you need. But as you say, Alix, as they as the kids get older, the needs that they have changed for sure. And they become far more emotional than they are practical in terms of the support, but then also other things start to kick in, whether that be ageing parents and caring responsibilities or just time for you. Yeah, and so I'm not sure I'll ever be ready to go back working full time because at different stages in your life, it presents you with some of that balance that is so valuable.

Joy Burnford: I suppose it's a bit like a marriage isn't it, it's kind of you know, being there for each other and kind of for the long term.

*** Joy Burnford: I do hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about my reasons for doing this podcast. At My Confidence Matters our mission is to work together to navigate a path to gender equality through building confidence and capability. I’m passionate about enabling every woman to have the confidence to progress in their career, and I love talking to, and sharing women’s stories to inspire others. This podcast forms a small part of what we do, and if you think there’s room for improvement in the way your organisation understands and manages the issues, barriers and obstacles that women face in the workplace, please do get in touch or tell your HR contact about us.

And don’t forget, developing a consistent personal brand can help you build your confidence and achieve your ambitions. So, if something as simple as clothes is standing between you and success, the amazing Gail at Gail Morgan Style is offering you 15% of all colour analysis and other services when you reference this podcast.***

Joy Burnford: So we’ve talked about all the positives. And I want to come down to the nitty gritty of challenges that you've faced along the way as well, because then we can learn from your experience. So what are the downsides to job sharing, there must be some.

Alix Ainsley: I guess it sort of correlates to like any senior role really, in the sort of disruptive world of work today, there are some challenging demands to be met and some challenging hours that can be expected too, and so whilst the job share enables you to have the better firebreak around your time, and the thoughtfulness around where you put your time, you do find that you're having to constantly manage those hours in a way that doesn't undermine the job share. Now, there's a really big incentive for doing that, because we probably both work very big agendas on the three days that we're in, and so they're long, and we sort of throw ourselves wholeheartedly into it, and burn the candle at both ends for those three days. But that's on the basis that we can then step back for two days and have that complete fire break. And that happens in order to respect the other one who's in the in the hot seat and needing to be the kind of face of the job share to the business, it would be undermining to step in. But when you're dealing with kind of those, that sort of big peaks in demand or big programmes of work, your responsibility and accountability isn't just pro-rated, like you're paying rations. And so you can't half that, you both share that. And that is on your mind. And like any, I guess, senior job or any job, you have to work out ways to deal with that and not feel uncomfortable about the fact that you're paying rations are, are being prorated, and see that the benefits that you're getting from the protection of time as where you're getting value, along with some of those other things that we talked about. You do have to be really watched for time and how that psychologically makes you feel.

Joy Burnford: Yes, and I feel very bad. Now you've both told me you're meant to be having a day off today.

Alix Ainsley: You know, you're you are inherently flexible. And actually we enjoy things like this Joy so don’t feel bad.

Joy Burnford: So what about you Charlotte? Any other challenges that you might have faced?

Charlotte Cherry: Yeah, I mean, a couple of things. I think one and Alix, you touched on it, a really supportive and encouraging boss when we when we first stepped into the job share. I mean, I think for anybody, wherever you work at whatever working arrangement, you know, your boss and who you work for is hugely important. And it's certainly as to Alix and I, but that support and encouragement is particularly important in a job share. And we've definitely experienced over our time job sharing where we've had some more challenging leaders who've probably struggled to understand and see the value of job sharing. And so, you know, spent more time trying to divide and dislodge rather than seeing and appreciating the value that two brought. So that definitely has been challenging. Thankfully, that's been rare, but it's definitely sort of had its moments, which definitely makes us sort of always grateful for the brilliant leaders, you know, when you have them that you have the opportunity to work for. I think one of the other things that has been challenging and it's sort of more on us, actually than it is anyone else but there's this desire to the kind of big commitment that we both put into the job has at times seen as sort of step over into the other person's working week and so definitely in the early days, we spent quite a lot of time in the sort of desire to be helpful and not let the other person down, you sort of step into more of their space on their working day, and one that undermines the job share, but two it sort of undermines the other person who's in the hot seat on that day. And so those were  challenges in the early days. And to some extent, each time, we've stepped into new roles, you want to kind of assert yourself, you want to kind of establish your position in the organisation. And so that, you know, there's a risk that that sort of creeps back in again. So, early days, my daughter was sort of right in the peak of Disney's Frozen. And so Let It Go was sort of everywhere you went. And so we would say to each other, just let it go, Alix or let it go, Charlotte, because I've got it now. And so that was definitely something that we were sort of had to be very aware of. And as I say, to some extent, we kind of keep that thread running through and need to remind ourselves every now and again.

Alix Ainsley: Yeah, no, that prompted me on another challenge sort of related, when you were talking about bosses Charlotte, it's that sense of sort of individuality, that you can sometimes can be a bit blurry with a job share, because what you're trying to do is manage the art. And this is why a good boss is so important that people manage the art of the individual, but the contribution that comes from the unity of two people. And when that's not working quite well, that can feel quite uncomfortable. But particularly when you are two very different people you have, we'll always have your own needs and your own sort of areas to develop or your own kind of unique strengths. So someone who can't recognise that and blend the both it's yeah, that can be challenging.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant. And thinking about our listeners today. And who might be thinking, wow, this job sharing sounds like a really good idea. I want to try that. I'd love it. If each of you could just give me one bit of advice around you know, what they should consider if they're looking at going for a job share? What is the first step they would need to take? Perhaps Charlotte, you could kick off with one bit of advice.

Charlotte Cherry: Yeah, I mean, I would say and, you know, Alix, you talked about, we have this responsibility and each of the organisations we've worked in, since we've been job sharing, we have done lots to try and encourage people and just by seeing us doing it, it's definitely we've left organisations and there's been more job sharers than when we when we started, which we felt incredibly proud of. And what I will often say to people is don't apologise, don't apologise for wanting to work flexibly, you know, often, and it's more, perhaps more typical of females is, you feel like you're, you kind of the need to be very apologetic. And I would say just be courageous, be courageous, ask, put the business case forward. And there's lots of stuff out there around sort of how do you put that case forward. But don't be afraid to ask and don't apologise.

Joy Burnford: And in my book that's coming out in November, a little plug for my book, there is a whole chapter on job sharing, and lots of advice in there about how to do this. Alix, is there anything you’d like to add, your advice?

Alix Ainsley:  I've really sort of noticed and recognise that our network has been incredibly important and having sponsors in your corner, all of the roles that we've moved together on have been as a result of extending our network and paying kind of really investing in our network and getting to know people. And that's led, those connections have led to opportunities. And I would say, that is an incredibly important this sort of being known and connected, is going to lead to the opportunity. Sponsors are so important. And so many people are uncomfortable with networking, but it's something that really is key, and be yourself. You know, as Charlotte says don't be apologetic for wanting this. Recognise there's a really strong business case for doing this as an incredibly sort of powerful business proposition, in a job share pair working across a delivery of a big job, that requires a sort of full time interaction with the business. And so there's huge value to organisations in doing this, and sort of seize that, and you can't control how people are going to respond. But you can control what you're throwing it into this. So that's sort of a little catchphrase for us that we learned too.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant. And finally, the season is all about getting to the top. So I'd love it if we could end today's podcast with one tip from each of you on what tip could you give to other women who want to reach the top, and you may not feel like you've reached the top yet, but I'm sure in a lot of people's eyes, you are definitely on that trajectory. So could perhaps you Charlotte first and then Alix, give us a tip. Do you feel you’ve got to the top?  

Charlotte Cherry: Well, no. And I mean, I think this is sort of the, it was never a kind of a master plan, actually to kind of, we find ourselves sort of, words used like trailblazers, words used like reaching the top, I'm not sure I ever thought I was where I was going to be and nor do I think that's sort of where I’ve got to, and maybe I need to stop and think a little bit more and reflect that actually, we've not done too bad, Alix, in getting to where we are.

Alix Ainsley:  I guess my top tip is be yourself, like Charlotte and I have always been relentlessly ourselves. And it's certainly helped us recognise where we're going to be at our best. And it's put us into the best position in terms of organisations that we work within. And I guess that's why we feel so content at the partnership, it really enables us to just be us. And it values us being us. And so yeah, be yourself.

Charlotte Cherry: I probably sort of, maybe it's a sort of bit build on that. But it's sort of be clear about what it is that you want, you know, and don't be afraid, then to, back to the don't be afraid to ask.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant, thank you so much, both of you. And I think you know, like you I'm on a mission to really promote job sharing as a tool in the workplace. I think it's so important, both for women and for men. And I think we didn't talk about that. And I think men feeling like they can do job sharing too, because it's brilliant for everybody.

Charlotte Cherry: One of the things, sorry, I'm sure you do want us to wrap up, but you know, the thing around particularly more senior roles, it gets more lonely, doesn't it? You know, typically, you need to take the leadership position on things, you know, you whilst increasingly, leaders showing vulnerability is important. But equally you take a big burden and a big responsibility. And so, yeah, whether you're men, whether you’re women, that same kind of responsibility and sense of having less people around you. And so yeah, something like job sharing for all parties is a great way to share that.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant. Well, thank you for being such fantastic role models for job sharing. And I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for joining us, and I'm sure the listeners will have really appreciated your words of wisdom. And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.

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Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.